Against ASL and Deaf Culture
Many Deaf people who disagree with certain ideas are accused of being against ASL and Deaf Culture, presumably by people displeased with their disagreements. Apparently some people are quick to believe these false accusations levied at other people. I would like to raise several questions to help the readers decide if these claims are valid or not.
If someone is fluent in ASL, how can using the language alone show the person biased? I would think if one is against ASL, the person won’t be using this language at all. Would that make more sense?
If someone is involved in the Deaf Culture, utilizing its language and engaging in the same activities along with other ASL-using Deaf friends, would that be a good indicator that the person is not against Deaf Community and its culture?
Being opposed to some ideas and beliefs of some certain Deaf individuals do not indicate a bias against ASL and Deaf culture. As long as they use ASL, maintain friendships with other Deaf and HoH members, and participate within the Deaf Culture, they are still members. [last sentence deleted]
Just because some people claim that these individuals are anti-ASL and anti Deaf Culture don’t make it a valid fact if these claims contradict with the actions of these people.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you agree or disagree?
Please conduct the discourse respectfully without any bashing. Thanks MZ
P.S. Several people told me using that guy as an example isn’t a good idea due to certain issues. After thinking about it, I agree with them, so please disregard that example. Thanks for the feedback MZ
P.P.S. Jean Boutcher misunderstood this post and ‘corrected’ me in her post. For those who may not realize this, I am talking about Deaf people, not hearing people. I left two comments clarifying this post, but so far she hadn’t published mine, while she published two other comments. I find that very revealing. MZ
I am starting to get the feeling it wasn’t misunderstanding, but a deliberate attempt on Jean’s part to twist my comment around. So much for literary honesty. MZ
P.P.S. It was a deliberate attempt, after all. So far, Jean Boutcher had choosen not to publish any of my comments clarifying the post. Well, now everybody understood with my second post. It’s unfortunate that this person chose not to because otherwise I wouldn’t have posted this clarification, which then directed attention to her deliberate attempts to misrepresent me in a bad light. Her actions didn’t reflect well on her and also wasn’t constructive, either. MZ
Many Deaf people who disagree with certain ideas are accused of being against ASL and Deaf Culture, presumably by people displeased with their disagreements. Apparently some people are quick to believe these false accusations levied at other people. I would like to raise several questions to help the readers decide if these claims are valid or not.
If someone is fluent in ASL, how can using the language alone show the person biased? I would think if one is against ASL, the person won’t be using this language at all. Would that make more sense?
If someone is involved in the Deaf Culture, utilizing its language and engaging in the same activities along with other ASL-using Deaf friends, would that be a good indicator that the person is not against Deaf Community and its culture?
Being opposed to some ideas and beliefs of some certain Deaf individuals do not indicate a bias against ASL and Deaf culture. As long as they use ASL, maintain friendships with other Deaf and HoH members, and participate within the Deaf Culture, they are still members. [last sentence deleted]
Just because some people claim that these individuals are anti-ASL and anti Deaf Culture don’t make it a valid fact if these claims contradict with the actions of these people.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you agree or disagree?
Please conduct the discourse respectfully without any bashing. Thanks MZ
P.S. Several people told me using that guy as an example isn’t a good idea due to certain issues. After thinking about it, I agree with them, so please disregard that example. Thanks for the feedback MZ
P.P.S. Jean Boutcher misunderstood this post and ‘corrected’ me in her post. For those who may not realize this, I am talking about Deaf people, not hearing people. I left two comments clarifying this post, but so far she hadn’t published mine, while she published two other comments. I find that very revealing. MZ
I am starting to get the feeling it wasn’t misunderstanding, but a deliberate attempt on Jean’s part to twist my comment around. So much for literary honesty. MZ
P.P.S. It was a deliberate attempt, after all. So far, Jean Boutcher had choosen not to publish any of my comments clarifying the post. Well, now everybody understood with my second post. It’s unfortunate that this person chose not to because otherwise I wouldn’t have posted this clarification, which then directed attention to her deliberate attempts to misrepresent me in a bad light. Her actions didn’t reflect well on her and also wasn’t constructive, either. MZ
November 24th, 2008 at 11:47 am
*whistle*
I really don’t have a problem with ASL (we use it predominately at home) and Deaf Culture. In fact, it is fun and comfortable, but I am not 100% involved due to having two children mainstreamed in public schools and my husband working at a hearing company. I just go on my life, not thinking about Deaf Culture, etc, just like most of people just living. Deaf culture is really part of Deaf community, nothing more, as well as oral deaf people, CI deaf people, Cued Speaking deaf, late deafened, etc, just being part of Deaf community.
It all comes down to finding one’s comfort zone and one’s journey to find a sense of belonging.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
You were talking about Deaf people, MZ, but my thoughts strayed to people like Alexander Graham Bell and Zenas Westervelt (founder of the Rochester School for the Deaf). These were hearing men who were fluent in ASL and turned against it.
Most Deaf people move in and out of each culture as life takes them, and retain presence in both. Unlike the Bell and Westervelt kind, they never advocate opposition to ASL as they continued using it.
We have seen some bloggers of late promoting Hearing standards such as the CI and oral methods, and yet still use ASL on occasion.
Between these diverse groups, one might question the need to draw boundaries and call it the “Deaf Community”. In a hang-loose society like ours, perhaps we don’t actually have to.
However, we are still struggling with the damage that the oral movement has caused in the past. It would be wise to carefully examine anyone that might try to limit ASL in any way. They aren’t part of the Deaf Community, nor would they want to be.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Dianrez…
That is like saying “you are not part of Deaf Community unless you embrace ASL”. I disagree with it. There are many deaf people who don’t know or just don’t see any reason to use ASL and yet they are part of our community. It is sad to see that ASL is seen and used as a “must” to be “accepted” or “seen” as part of Deaf Community.
Well, we could debate this forever. But we all know that communities change… cultures change.
November 24th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Well, actually I was talking about Deaf people who still use ASL positively and remain part of the Deaf Community, including the inner core Deaf Culture. They use ASL, promote ASL, fraternize with other Deaf people, marry Deaf people, attend Deaf schools and/or colleges, participate in different Deaf organizations, and so on. However, they are being told they are against both ASL and Deaf Culture because they don’t agree with other Deaf people’s ideas.
Hearing people like AGBell weren’t really part of the Deaf Culture. I cannot comment on the founder of RSD as I am not familiar with that person. AGBell wasn’t Deaf, a major minus. He wasn’t active in interacting with culturally Deaf people, another major minus. He was also opposed to the socialization of Deaf people, including their intermarriages.
AGBell was involved in the Deaf Community, but not a part of the Deaf Culture. Would you both agree this is a fair assessment?
November 24th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Dianrez, you raised a good issue with this statement:
“It would be would be wise to carefully examine anyone that might try to limit ASL in any way. They aren’t part of the Deaf Community, nor would they want to ”
What if these Deaf people acknowledge the rights of the parents to raise their Deaf babies and children because the current laws protect the rights of the parents? They can encourage the parents to see the benefits of the ASL, but refrain from saying it’s not the rights of the Deaf babies/children due to the current laws? Where do they stand?
Some feel the Deaf babies and children must learn ASL, regardless of the wishes of their parents. These laws are in error as the rights of these minors supersede the rights of the parents.
Some pointing out on the current laws noting the fundamental rights of the parents to decide what communication methods to use with their deaf babies and children must be respected are being called anti ASL and anti Deaf Culture.
Is that a fair accusation? Keep in mind that all support the use of ASL among deaf babies and children. Where do we draw the line?
November 24th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Interesting questions here.
There are Deaf parents of deaf babies who opted for cochlear implants and AVT therapy, in addition to ASL at home, for their deaf child. Just because they chose this option, these Deaf parents have been called everything in the book, from anti-ASL and anti-Culture to murderers. The parents themselves use ASL and participate in Deaf culture. They get a lot of backlash from their own.
I’m not an ASL-user as English is my first language, was born profoundly deaf, yet I support the use of ASL as one of several options for deaf babies/children. I also support parents’ rights to decide the communication methodology for their deaf child.
I’ve been called anti-ASL and anti-Culture for my oracy, for being a part of the hearing world, marrying a hearing husband, yet I support the use of ASL, which is integral to Deaf Culture, as a communication choice, not a right, for deaf children. I still get flak over trying to stay open-minded in regards to options, which a few in Deaf culture seem to oppose.
ASL-only and no other is a cookie-cutter approach, just as cochlear implantation/ AVT-only and no other is another cookie-cutter approach. No one deaf child is alike, just as no one family is alike either.
Lastly, there are many different d/Deaf people that make up the deaf community, covering a range from Deaf culture/ASL users to deaf oral people to deaf-blind to late-deafened to deaf/other disabilities. That doesn’t even begin to cover all the communication methodologies that all these deaf people use. Many use a combination of methods to navigate their world.
But they are members of the deaf community, not because of the communication method, but because they all have one thing in common– deafness.
November 24th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
My thinking is similiar to Ann_C. I see Rachel Chakof as part of Deaf Community, even though she does not use ASL.
Hmmmm…
November 24th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Right, it is not all black and white. There are many gray areas, one can find that happy medium. My deaf son wanted the implant and got it last year. He goes to the school for the deaf in our state and uses ASL. I am deaf myself, my husband is hard of hearing. I have a hard of hearing son who also goes to the school for the deaf in our state, he does not wear a hearing aid or the implant. He has stated he is not interested in either, that’s his choice.
I have a stepson who is deaf also. He chose not to get the implant for himself. I respect his decision. My daughter and stepson are hearing and they have their own “hearing community” as we have our own “deaf community”.
I think parents of deaf children need to realize that it is not implant/oral versus no implant/ASL. There are many ways to travel this journey.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I’ve enjoyed reading your blog and would always select your blog to read if I have limited time. After the Gallaudet protests quieted down, I’ve not had a chance to review DeafRead till last summer where I read through some really frightening blog submissions and comments. I apologize if this is a lengthy response.
They would mainly put down ASL deaf people who are opposed to CIs. Why were those thoughts shouted down? When we read about pro-ASL and pro-CI thoughts, they are respected. Seems to me that pro-ASL and pro-CI is the dominant political view to maintain. You see those pro-ASL and pro-CI advocates vehemently defending their pro-CI opinions. I did wonder if they would “vehemently” defend their pro-ASL opinions.
That leads me to ask the following question: if we had to give up one or other, which would you keep? Their ASL or their good speech. I did a random survey of my friends, and all said they would choose to keep ASL . Why aren’t we defending ASL? The very same people admit the turning points of their lives was when they learned ASL.
Personally, I don’t think we are asking all of the essential questions. I would like to see this question asked: which of these two, ASL or good speech skills, would promote better reading skills? I personally think it is more imperative that our deaf children know how to read than how to talk. I’ve met oh so many deaf people with excellent speech but cannot decipher an English composition.
Deaf children’s low reading scores are more frightening. This is a critical debate than ASL vs CI. That’s why we see many deaf adults promoting ASL as a right for babies. They may have an unpolished strategy, but their intentions are worthy.
There is a severe paucity of promotional materials for ASL. As long as there’s a lack of organized & moneyed strategy for promoting ASL as there is for oralism & CIs, ASL will never attain the same status as CIs.
We need to ask why deaf people cannot oppose CIs and be respected as well as we are respecting parents’ right to choose CIs.
Reading through such debate made me feel as if those with CIs are feeling superior to those without CIs. I see history repeating in where we lived through a time when hard of hearing people thought they were better than those who couldn’t speak.
When we don’t know our own history, we are condemned to repeat it.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I am seeing a growing trend of more Deaf people accepting of CI/oral deaf people nowadays, as we are approaching this century’s decade 2010′s, as the memories of oral abuse are fading now. I don’t want to make light of the abuse, but with child abuse law in effect, increasing awareness of disabilities, more accessibility, etc., deaf people are better off (in America, of course… I can’t say the same thing about other countries, since I have limited knowledge of this international subject.)
November 24th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
There is no question in my mind that ASL promotes better literacy skills than speech. There are many hearing people who speak just fine, but are illiterate.
That issue is different than the issue of ASL vs CI. There are some CI’ers who castigate ASL to the point of where they’re slandering the language. That’s wrong. And it’s also wrong for some of us in the community to turn around and use that same tactic against the CI.
The entire debate is already so emotionally charged, and it really disgusts me to see people try to escalate it further. It’s not necessary. The majority of us WANT to see ASL succeed, and become a true, equal option for parents with Deaf children.
But the end doesn’t justify the means, and I think that’s why we see such a split here in our community. There are some who think the end DOES justify the means, and some who do not.
November 24th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
This whole debate will continue to rage forever unless people accept some basic truths.
Deaf with a capital D, means Deaf community, and means Sign Language is the language that binds the group. This does not mean you have to give up your oral skills, other communication methods, or agree with everything that is preached. It just means that we have a common unifying language/ objective.
d with a little d, represents those who do not identify as Deaf [culturally] and who do not embrace sign language. That’s fine too. As it does not mean you can’t sign, etc…
But, you cannot decide that you are a member of the Deaf community if you do not sign or share some of the cultrual values. Equally, you cannot say that we are all deaf [with a little d] just because we share a hearing impairment! Anymore than black people the world over, are the same becuase they share the same skin colour.
Cultural differences account for a lot, something that is glossed over by the deafies with the medical/ hearing viewpoint.
But Marla, you are not wrong when you say that people with the CI seem to feel superior than those without… that’s exactly what I see. The problem though, is that many cannot see pass the ability to hear, acquire speech etc., and reading some of their writings, one wonders, where is the humanity?
More to the point, I get the impression that their whole sense of esteem is balance quite precariously on the ability to hear and fucntion as a hearing person.
Then again, their is a distinct lack of irony in many of the oralist arguements!
Personally, I have no problem with people’s choices in using technology [I still use hearing aids], but I have absolute contempt for those who belittle or trivilaise Deafness.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Hello. A lot of comments… I just got back, so I am somewhat winded and need to rest.
Marla you brought up some good issues. Are you seeing this post a pro CI? Maybe I am missing something, but I didn’t discuss CI here… just ASL, Deaf babies/children and the parental choices/laws. Please do get back and clarify what you mean.
For me, I would hope that the Deaf babies and children are exposed to ASL. The argument that ASL hurts aural and verbal development is a scare tactic, to me, design to spook hearing parents away from seeing the benefits of ASL in helping their children master English easier.
We are experiencing a split in the Deaf Community now regarding the parental rights vs Deaf babies and children regarding ASL. Some Deaf people who maintain as long as laws exist, the rights of the parents supersede the Deaf babies/children, are being called anti Deaf and anti ASL. Even the culturally Deaf people are being told they are anti Deaf and ASL. So my question is.. is this the new litmus test for Deaf Community?
I do not condone belittling of anyone based on their ability to hear or not, based on anyone based on their ability to speak or not, based on the ability of anyone to use ASL or not. That goes for all people, Hearing, Deaf, oral, Purple, Green Martian, whatever … Respect everybody
I am gonna go and rest for a while.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Going through so many labels, and I’ve decided to pick the only one label for myself.
See answer in my video.
[riffly_video]8394073ABA7611DDBC64D7618271DB70[/riffly_video]
November 24th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Someone misunderstood this post big time. I started the post with the mention of many Deaf people, meaning culturally Deaf people.
In Responce to MZ’s Blog Post http://jboutcher.blogspot.com/2008/11/in-responce-to-mzs-blog-post.html
That’s what I left in her post: Please read more carefully. I am talking about Deaf people, not hearing people. I’m also listing several criteria, not just one criteria.
Anytime you may not be sure what I am talking about, please feel free to contact me. You know my e mail address.
November 24th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Mishka, I have to admit I was a little lost about what your article is about, and it appears I am not the only one. You ask us to read more carefully, I think I read it 5 times? Maybe becuz its Monday and I have too many things going on right now? Perhaps it would help people like me understand the gist of what you are getting at is if you list examples of actual situations where “Many Deaf people who disagree with certain ideas are accused of being against ASL and Deaf Culture”? I ask, only becuz I see the commenters going in different directions so it has me puzzled. Thanks.
November 24th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
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November 24th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Amy ?? {seesmic_video:{“url_thumbnail”:{“value”:”http://t.seesmic.com/thumbnail/X4XF99xqNi_th1.jpg”}”title”:{“value”:”Amy ?? ”}”videoUri”:{“value”:”http://www.seesmic.com/video/TLLReWM9so”}}}
November 24th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Sheri, Jean assumed I was talking about both hearing and deaf people, but in reality I was talking about culturally Deaf people.
Ok, some Culturally Deaf people are being told that they are anti-ASL and anti-Deaf because they have different views than other culturally Deaf people. In other words, we all must have one mindset. If not, we are against ASL and Deaf Culture.
For example, some Deaf people are insisting that all Deaf babies and children must have ASL. Period. Even if it’s against the wishes of their parents.
Others said.. we cannot force ASL on these babies/children if their parents are opposed to ASL. We can market ASL and hopefully convince the parents the value of ASL.
But because we refuse to force it on hearing parents, we are being told we are anti ASL and anti Deaf.
That goes along with other topics, like Deafhood, etc. Anytime we differ from others, we are anti ASL and anti Deaf. I hope I am making sense. I am ready for a nap.
November 24th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
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November 24th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
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November 24th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
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November 24th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Mishka,
Oh wow, really?
Well, I am one of those people who believe all babies should learn asl, deaf and hearing.
Understand your point and Deaf pundit’s too, re can’t force parents.
We disagree on “how” perhaps?
But thats okay that we disagree sometimes. We agree on issues more often than not.
When we do disagree, it helps me to work on how to make my position more clear. Because I can only shape and make my own arguments, not yours. It also helps stretch my mind on other ways to make the case for “why” and/or “why not”.
But of course I am not going to personalize this issue to attack those of you who disagree with me by saying you are anti-Deaf or anti-ASL. If anything you have been very clear you are for ASL. Some people may not have any interest in what people who oppose an issue have to say. Nothing you or anyone can do about that. I am always interested because it helps me determine what legislators may or may not say or ask. I consider such disagreements “friendly” ones.
I only hope when I do get the opportunity to argue or debate with you, smile, that it helps to stimulate your thinking as well.
Gee I think I’m ready for a nap too.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Hi, Mishka, no, I didn’t perceive your blog as pro-CI. I knew I shouldn’t get in this debate if I cannot invest in the kind of time it takes to explain my perception of the issue. It’s highly probably I lumped my political pondering in this blog at the expense of appearing coherently intelligent. I am so frustrated and perplexed. As Sheri inquired, what was the purpose of your blog?
People who know me know I don’t care much about the pro-CI or anti-CI debate, but I do see this issue being so divisive in a shocking way. I am not anti-CI; it’s just that I don’t see how a CI enhances deaf children’s academic development which I assumed — perhaps incorrectly — that most hearing parents would be mainly concerned about when finding out their child is deaf.
In California, only 8% of deaf students pass the California High School Exit Examination (CAHSEE). It’s a test that tests whether high school seniors possess 8th grade educational standards.
Do we see our deaf community showing concerns for 92% of deaf high school seniors who do not pass those standards? If so, I am not aware of them.
Let do some statistics: there are 9000 deaf students in the state of California. 8% of 9000 is 720 deaf children. 720 deaf students possess at least 8th grade or more academic standards. 8,280 students fail. Who are going to take care of them?
I think it is a tragedy that we as a community promotes parental oral choices at the expense of research-based data that shows deaf children learn better and more through a full-fledged and natural language. If this is not criminal, I don’t know what is. An oral language is possible, but not without enormous human sacrifice and costly staffing.
So, Mishka, you asked for opinions, and here’s mine. Let us all be practical and take a step or two back and look at the bigger picture of our community needs. It’s not whether one type of deaf adult gets adequate respect from other deaf adults.
Our community is as good as the mostly illiterate deaf adults that inhabit it. They are illiterate because of the choices their parents made, no matter what political spin we tag on it. I know my parental choices affect both of my deaf children profoundly.
Those of us who has a full-fledged language like yourself and me are a true minority within a minority and ought to count our blessings we can dissent on less fortunate deaf people’s behalf.
To clarify my beliefs, parents have the absolute authority over the choices they make. I would never suggest that we ought to decide on their deaf children’s behalf.
However, we ought to show them what happens to some of their children when they graduate from high school and don’t attain the full oral language they hoped for and instead have to settle for subpar ASL skills.
That’s all I wanted to say. I just feel like the passion for ASL for deaf children is totally and constantly misunderstood. This community of grassroots advocates are no match for professional and I must say savvy oral advocates.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Dianerz writes:
We have seen some bloggers of late promoting Hearing standards such as the CI and oral methods, and yet still use ASL on occasion.
MZ writes:
Well, actually I was talking about Deaf people who still use ASL positively and remain part of the Deaf Community, including the inner core Deaf Culture. They use ASL, promote ASL, fraternize with other Deaf people, marry Deaf people, attend Deaf schools and/or colleges, participate in different Deaf organizations, and so on. However, they are being told they are against both ASL and Deaf Culture because they don’t agree with other Deaf people’s ideas
Deb M writes:
Ok readers, that is me. I copied and pasted both commenters above and I am seeing this is very true happening to me and others.
you see, I grew up in deaf oral Catholic school, small class of 7 students of same age from age 2 to 15 years old, the school was 50 students from nursery to 8th grade.
I learned ASL at age of 11 from deaf family who lived nearby. Then mainstreamed at hearing high school at my own choice for 3 years then to Gallaudet.
I can see two groups of deaf people who grew up in deaf schools and not exposed to hearing world have the tendancy to have their own views. While others like myself who was exposed to hearing world, and I use both Oral and ASL very well.
Seems that these two deaf groups are at war with each other accusing the other for anti ASL, pro CIs and yet while we are trying to educate these deaf asl is to accept the reality that technology is getting better and better that CI will be gone in 5 to 10 years and new one is being researched by using “light theraphy” to help deaf to hear.
Go and goggle the article “Light wave implant hope for deaf” by BBC NEWS
Now, listen it is happening to Native American Indian culture that whites wiped their language, their culture out is same thing happening to deaf people.
Believe me, deaf families for generations will realize that deaf babies and children are going to become even more minority and soon to disappear that these deaf families are going to realize that their deaf children would benefit with much more and better and advanced technology such as light theraphy in BBC NEWS or even better.
Why can’t we stop the infighting among each other now and start to learn to get along is to accept everyone’s perspective and dialgoue in proper way is to focus on this “ISSUE” not based on emotions.
Its tough for all of us, however with this blogs and vlogs by us deaf people, we are learning from each other and improve from this day forward.
I pray hope that we can begin to understand and respect one’s view. The motto is “we can agree to disagree” and remain friends.
I learned that from my hearing friend who we had passionate argument. She taught me this motto and since to this day we are friends and respect each other.:D
November 24th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Deb M,
Thank you for sharing your views.
While it certainly seems at times, there are polarized views on issues, but I am of the opinion that eventually “the twain shall meet”.
Even the miniority opinion carries weight, as it does in politics – done so that there is a balance in power. In all this and we must strive to show our respect for the minority opinion as well as the minority showing respect for trends we are witnessing with the majority. In recognizing this respect, we could be dialouging how, regardless of hearing influence or not, of what we all can do to preserve Deaf Culture and ASL. Has the majority expressed this openly? I’ve not seen it. Only see where people use CI as reason why they’re flocking to the hearing world, not seen enough of where using ASL is the reason why they have 100% communication. Just because a trend is going one way, doesn’t mean we have to succomb to it and sacrifice our culture. And, p.s. I learned from my Deaf Femtor, the same motto, “agree to disagree”.
November 24th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Hey Marla! Great to see your comments here!
You go girl! I think your comment about parents, “we ought to show them what happens to some of their children when they graduate from high school and don’t attain the full oral language they hoped for and instead have to settle for subpar ASL skills”, describes the issue perfectly. We have to show them. Question seems to be these days is “how”, re-defining Deaf in a positive light to market to hearing parents of deaf children the need for and why. Parents are only one part of the equation re the sad state of affairs with our educational system but are the most critical in need of information when they discover their baby is deaf. Lots of work to do to make changes.
November 24th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
ASLRisen,
You probably do not see such trends like some group or individuals band together to put down on some kind of dissent – the right to make a rebuttal or disagree for sake of argument.
You have to understand the whole picture what is really going on the DeafRead or outside the DR. Some group or individuals try to shut up that deaf person from bringing up good point or strong opinion, then accuse the dissent as part of “crab theory” to intimidate or put fear in someone from speaking out anything freely.
That’s what MZ tried to say on her blog.
Most important of all is to listen to anyone what he or she have to say than attempting to control that person from saying anything negative or unpleasant stuff.
RLM
November 24th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
For once, I agree with RLM!
November 24th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
ASL Risen, there is a vicious smear campaign going on to silence the moderate Deaf people from speaking out. The reputations of these moderate culturally Deaf people, including mine, are being systematically maligned, with people being told that they are anti-ASL and anti-Deaf. A group and its followers cannot tolerate the diversity of thoughts and beliefs within the diverse and vibrant Deaf Community, so they are attacking these outspoken Deaf people. Because of their deliberate deceptions, others think we are out to destroy Deaf Community and ASL, despite of our long history of positive advocacy for Deaf Community and ASL.
Divisive? Yes, I agree with you. I find this very unfortunate. I continue to work on Deaf advocacy but I find that I need to defend myself while empowering other Deaf people, encouraging them to express their opinions without fear of retaliation and oppression from a certain people.
November 24th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Marla, that’s an excellent question about the value of ASL and good speech. I can asset that ASL is very precious to me.
I am painfully aware that oralism wasn’t the appropriate method for the majority of Deaf babies/children back then. I’ve seen some struggling when they weren’t permitted to learn sign language and to this day, they carry scars. : /
The question whether the babies and children should learn ASL or not isn’t the issue. As of now, the parents have the fundamental rights to determine what they feel is the best for their children. If we remove these rights from the hearing parents, we also remove these rights from Deaf parents. In other words, if the Deaf parents lose their rights,too, then they run the risk of seeing their Deaf children cochlear implanted against their wishes. That was tried before in MI and defeated only due to the legal rights of the Deaf parents.
I feel it is very beneficial for both hearing and Deaf babies to use ASL. According to the laws, the parents have the last say and we can try to market ASL as effectively as we can to convince the parents to see the benefits of ASL for their hearing and Deaf children.
November 24th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Wow! I’m impressed with the divergent views presented here so far, views that are struggling to be heard as one. Many of you have valid points, no question about that!
I believe many of us, little d or big D, recognize the problem of the dismal literacy rate of deaf high school graduates, as Marla has pointed out.
I also believe many of us recognize what Deb M has appealed to, to leave the emotion out of the technology issue and accept that there are going to be many different d/Deaf views about that issue.
I also believe there are many of us who believe there needs to be a middle ground, as Sheri has expressed, “the twain shall meet”, in getting ASL out on the table as a viable and workable option for parents of deaf babies/ children. An advocacy for ASL without bashing what technology/communication methods are already in place, so that these parents can understand that speech and hearing is not the end of the world as far as their deaf child is concerned, that literacy and use of the mind are far more important to a deaf child’s success as an adult.
And RLM put it perfectly, listen. Listen to what deaf people are trying to say or sign, instead of putting them down as negative or crabber or a mental case, which is another form of “control”.
Seriously, do any of us like being “controlled” by other deaf? It’s like an older queen sister telling us we’re not as good as she is. Pffft.
Lastly, MZ wants to advocate empowerment, a term we are all coming to terms with in this new day and age, with instant internet communications and disability rights now available to us.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:10 am
mishka,
this is a fascinating post, honestly. naturally, i was inclined to ask you what prompted this post, but realized that would be irrelevant because the issue itself is real. It is an ongoing issue, for me, i feel it’s old news; however, that doesn’t mean it’s not there.
perhaps, this is indeed an elephant in the room in the deaf community. i’m curious, what in what ways can we reduce the occurrence of this? is there a solution?
do i agree with this kind of behavior? no. for example, i’ve been accused of things like being against asl, not deaf enough, and all that jazz; so, i know what it’s like to be on that end. my solution was to pull rank, the status quo–though, i realize that not everyone is dod, went to deaf school and gally…
my idea to resolving this among those who aren’t as privileged as i am in terms of rank and status quo would be to remember that it is just one person, a small percentage of people. Remain true to yourself and you will have support–even in the most unlikely places.
if need be, i will do my best to support anyone any way i can. i think maybe intervention of peers and the inclusive mindset of the community would reduce the number of this kind of thing from happening.
just my two-cents
ben
November 25th, 2008 at 5:06 am
Far too often we are seeing some deaf refuse to communicate unless on signing terms, even when, they have acquired alternatives.
Does ‘preference’ mean you are going to force people to comply with sign regardless ? What if everyone else adopts the same stance ? I come from a hearing background, albeit it is so long ago, it is hard to recall! I learnt sign language, I will never be brilliant, but, I can communicate to other deaf who sign and do.
I also, use my lip-reading and my voice, to communicate with hearing people, why e.g. would I insist, that hearing people sign to me or I will ignore them ? To score brownie points with the deaf community ?
Because this happened to a friend of mine from the cultural and deaf school area, who found at an old school meeting, another former pupil he hadn’t seen for years, refused to communicate orally, despite both of them being educated that way, so my friend was denied basic communication to prove some obscure political deaf point ?
One wonders what happens if I refused sign because I can speak ! I would assume they would be quite annoyed, because they know I can sign a bit. While I may not qualify as a part of the deaf culture, I do know that appalling bad manners like this is not acceptable, and I rather fear these ‘sign or else’ people, are going to end up making a mockery of bilingualism as well as finding themselves even more isolated.
Do they switch off a TV if captions come on ? Plain bad manners and ignorance is no excuse…
November 25th, 2008 at 6:12 am
The comments I just read are WONDERFUL because we are communicating, listening without feeling offended or being on defensive, etc.
It is hard… we see many factors (illiteracy among deaf people… only in English here in America; addressing the needs of deaf babies to reduce the chance of joining the rank of illiterate deaf adults; how to empower hearing parents without scaring them away; etc. I have NO problem with AGB (hey, that is my opinion) AND I have NO problem with DBC. It is a question of HOW they could come together in a proper way without using “tactics”, without seeing fingerpointing, etc. I am sure time will take care of it one way or other.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:17 am
Right, right, address to the topic, not going off of the point. When I say I have no problem with AGB, it makes me appear as anti-ASL and pro-CI in some people’s eyes. But it is NOT true… I am NOT an activist (that I have admitted in the past and I admit again today… I am NOT, except only for my children.)
I have met many people who are like me… with different priorities. I think it is WONDERFUL that we have activists who are for acceptance of diversity in the deaf community, if not unity, BUT as long as we have different ideas or different priorities, we do not need to be branded or labeled differently just cuz of our approach to life.
November 25th, 2008 at 7:32 am
RLM thanks MWAHS {seesmic_video:{“url_thumbnail”:{“value”:”http://t.seesmic.com/thumbnail/Kpnw7Upqu4_th1.jpg”}”title”:{“value”:”RLM thanks MWAHS ”}”videoUri”:{“value”:”http://www.seesmic.com/video/rtqGrXLldt”}}}
November 25th, 2008 at 7:37 am
AGBell right to PUSH??? {seesmic_video:{“url_thumbnail”:{“value”:”http://t.seesmic.com/thumbnail/M0k0JmiEgn_th1.jpg”}”title”:{“value”:”AGBell right to PUSH??? ”}”videoUri”:{“value”:”http://www.seesmic.com/video/RAlzBKTj9H”}}}
November 25th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Wow! Really impressive comments, open-minded, respectful dialogue going on here…interesting. *smile* Jodi
November 25th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Good Morning everybody.
Many comments again! This is very encouraging as we are starting to “see” each other’s position. It appears that we do have a lot more in common, after all.
I’ll be answering the posts little at a time.
Shawn, actually, no, it’s not ok for AGBell to push biased and misleading information and use scare tactics to lure parents into oralism and cochlear implants. I am somewhat confused when you said about Deaf oralists looking the other way. As a Deaf person with an exclusive oral background, I am very much active in encouraging parents to consider ASL with their deaf babies and children, so do other deaf ASLers with oral backgrounds. In fact, a good number of the Deaf oralist/ASLers do use ASL with their own Deaf children and enroll them in Deaf programs or schools. I think that alone tells everything to the hearing parents… that the deaf oralists chosing to use ASL with their deaf children is the ultimate proof that they find ASL more effective than oral language. Now to think of this, this would be an excellent ASL marketing tool.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:41 am
MZ??? sorry I make you confuse??? {seesmic_video:{“url_thumbnail”:{“value”:”http://t.seesmic.com/thumbnail/ES4YFuw4mI_th1.jpg”}”title”:{“value”:”MZ??? sorry I make you confuse??? ”}”videoUri”:{“value”:”http://www.seesmic.com/video/qmVpczBdsg”}}}
November 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Shawn…
Hmmm… thanks to Facebook, I have been in touch with some old friends and they all use ASL. In fact, the majority of my graduating class from CID use ASL.
I have two children who are mainstreamed in public schools (as well as one child who attends ISD on a part time basis) and they are doing great… we use ASL at home. I have sent my son to AGBell sponsored summer camps and my son says that many campers were aware of ASL and used it at the camp and the leaders were pretty cool about it. They even offered an ASL interpreter for my son who declined the offer. My son’s former Teacher of the Deaf who was one of the directors of Hear Indiana (AGBell chapter) believed in advocating ASL for deaf babies… that was BEFORE DBC was set up. Even Hear Indiana has good resources for helping mainstreaming to succeed. When we spoke about AGBell conference last year, she stated that the conference was targeted to the audience which was mostly hearing. Again, the issue is audience, but it has nothing to do with Mishka’s blog.
That is why I believe that we are LUCKY to be living in this time where a wealth of information is right at our fingers. I believe that the Deaf Community is MORE exciting, more thriving, etc., thanks to technology. If not for technology, I would have never met you, Mishka, Paotie, Aidan Mack, even Rachel Chakof and her mom, Melissa, etc. online. Thanks to the internet, the Deaf community is a bit MORE inclusive, which is very nice, right?
November 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Karen, AGBell still no work! {seesmic_video:{“url_thumbnail”:{“value”:”http://t.seesmic.com/thumbnail/Uo97cWoOiW_th1.jpg”}”title”:{“value”:”Karen, AGBell still no work! ”}”videoUri”:{“value”:”http://www.seesmic.com/video/S3IHVRbsIQ”}}}
November 25th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
All right, that is your opinion. I am NOT into bashing, and you have no experience with Hear Indiana like I do.
The main point I was making is that internet brought us together, even some of us for AGBell and still use ASL… it should NOT divide us. You are against AGBell, fine. I am cool with AGBell, and it should not be a problem unless someone makes it a problem. That is the point of Mishka’s blog.
Okay, happy Thanksgiving.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I’d just like to say in connection with the original comments on here that a person can be an ASL user, but still express opinions that are negative towards ASL. This is because many of us have dysconscious audism; we have internalized audist attitudes toward ASL, Deaf Culture, Deaf ways, Deaf people, etc. We may not realize that some of the things that we may be saying are in fact negative towards our own lives. So, I would not say that the people you may be talking about are “anti ASL” (some may actually be, I’d need more concrete examples), but just that they have internalized the audist values against ASL and Deaf people and are re-expressing those audist values.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
I think I do get your point, Don, however, I don’t agree with your perspective. These people are very much in support of ASL and Deaf Culture. Just because they have different political views don’t indicate that they have ‘audist’ attitudes toward ASL, Deaf Culture, and Deaf ways, etc. As far as I am aware, these people are very much involved in the Deaf Community and are also teaching ASL to hearing people, promoting ASL, too. They treasure ASL, too. So please tell us how can that be dysconscious audism?
Happy Thanksgiving, Don.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
It could be expressed in ways such as saying to be able to speak is better than to sign, or to sign in an English manner is better than to sign in ASL, or more subtle ways. I’m not saying that they have audist attitudes, just because they have different political views, but that audist attitudes have “infected” us all (and I’m counting myself in here — I have caught myself (or been caught) making statements or expressing things in a way that have put Hearing values over Deaf values by process of omission or stress, etc.). We can treasure ASL, but still not realize that some of the things we think about it are a result of audist teachings.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
By the way, happy Thanksgiving to you too!
November 28th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
after spending years teaching deaf and deaf blind children just to communicate,..my only comment is that I am for COMMUNICATION in any form,..which exposes a child early on to LANGUAGE!!
I will temper this statement with the statement that I have a strong bias towards manual communication early on for deaf, HOH,..and hearing children. My own hearing son, who was taught signs as a baby,..picked up language EARLY on and was reading at a seventh grade level in the second grade…(seven years old!!)
Imagine what ANY child would become without LANGUAGE..of any sort! These folks exist. I’ve worked with such people.
EVERYONE, ASL signers or oralists,..or those who favor CI’s,..should be most worried about explaining the “facts of Life,” to Hearing parents..early on..concerning their deaf children learning how to communicate..in ANY language!!
November 30th, 2008 at 7:01 am
Karen, To let you know that I have NOT label you as MOLE (SPY). From what I already learned that there were Deaf spy because of the commenters that I learn from this link:
http://www.deafvideo.tv/video/watch/30197/
Karen I have NOT use your name as a MOLE!!!