They’re Trying To Divide Us
“It is simply few people who are trying to divide us.”
Over the past several weeks, I’ve caught some people commenting on how others tried to divide us. All I could observe is a clash between two different cultures. Their differences, the products of diverse upbringing, don’t indicate that they are “trying to divide the Deaf Community”. The more we try to change people, the more they resist as we all have a fundamental need … to be accepted for what we are, without judgment.
There will always be differences between us… trying to force us to accept one set of values perceived as better than another set of just causes more friction. It’s just like religion and politics. The more we preach about one religion, the more tuned out the recipient will be. Many times people agree not to talk about politics and religions for a simple reason: The passionate discussions about the differences between us produce negative energy, resulting in combative arguments and angry feelings. So, yes, focusing on our differences does divide us.
Focusing on our common goals channels our energy toward a positive and productive environment. During the DPN and UfG protests, we put aside our differences to fight for our much beloved alma mater. We can do that again, and work toward common goals… instead of fighting among us due to our differences.
Among us, I see a universal agreement: We all agree that deaf babies should be exposed to sign language .. just like their hearing peers.
Maybe we should start concentrating on what we do have in common and go from there?
P.S. When I mentioned UfG, I meant the unity among the protesters only.
“It is simply few people who are trying to divide us.”
Over the past several weeks, I’ve caught some people commenting on how others tried to divide us. All I could observe is a clash between two different cultures. Their differences, the products of diverse upbringing, don’t indicate that they are “trying to divide the Deaf Community”. The more we try to change people, the more they resist as we all have a fundamental need … to be accepted for what we are, without judgment.
There will always be differences between us… trying to force us to accept one set of values perceived as better than another set of just causes more friction. It’s just like religion and politics. The more we preach about one religion, the more tuned out the recipient will be. Many times people agree not to talk about politics and religions for a simple reason: The passionate discussions about the differences between us produce negative energy, resulting in combative arguments and angry feelings. So, yes, focusing on our differences does divide us.
Focusing on our common goals channels our energy toward a positive and productive environment. During the DPN and UfG protests, we put aside our differences to fight for our much beloved alma mater. We can do that again, and work toward common goals… instead of fighting among us due to our differences.
Among us, I see a universal agreement: We all agree that deaf babies should be exposed to sign language .. just like their hearing peers.
Maybe we should start concentrating on what we do have in common and go from there?
P.S. When I mentioned UfG, I meant the unity among the protesters only.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I agree with you Mishka.
Totally.
Ben
January 7th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
I agree, too.
Well-said, Mishka.
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
We are in the different world.
We are different people.
We have “four” senses. One elminate…..hear.
We are different “see.”
We are different “smell.”
We are different “taste.”
We are different “touch/feel.”
Therefore, we have our different life.
Well said, Misha.
White Ghost
January 7th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
“During the DPN and UfG protests, we put aside our differences to fight for our much beloved alma mater. We can do that again, and work toward common goals… instead of fighting among us due to our differences.”
Sure there were “common goals” during the UfG protest but there were in fact disparities among students and alumni about the protest much unlike the DPN protest. Otherwise there would have been very little objections about the protest or its goals that everybody agreed with one singular voice. But this was no one “single voice.” Thus the silly notion that this was a protest steeped in “unity.” Instead I saw fractioning on various levels and breadths.
Sorry but that’s how I see it as well as many others. We can have common goals on a variety of issues but as long as you have ideologies and cultural promotions you’ll continue to have friction and disagreements.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Right.
I agree with McConnell. Who is part of that “unity?”
Is Deaf culture just for those who went to Gallaudet?
But, the first step is to agree to disagree and then build up from there.
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
My apologies for not being clear the first time. I meant the unity among the protesters during UfG. There is no question there were bitter divisions between the deaf camps from which left some of us still unhealed.
Yes, we can always agree to disagree and go forth to work together, despite our differences
January 7th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
HI and ‘deaf’ have a culture too…? it’s all downhill from here on Mishka
CI culture, Hearing Aid culture, sign culture, ‘I can hear a bit but not much..’ culture 
It’s the ‘Deaf’ to blame, they made culture fashionable…. before that we all viewed ourself as one and the same , now we’re back to ‘some are more equal than others..’ again.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
When I meet a deaf or hard of hearing person I make no attempt to determine whether that person is a part of that “Deaf culture” or not. Or that he or she is a part of that “Deaf community” or not. Or whether the person knows signs or not. Or whether the person prefers to speak and not sign. Or how well one hears. To me, that person is just a person who is communicating with me whether the person is late deafened, hard of hearing or a native signer. Doesn’t make any difference to me. My goal I like to see is that the communication gap be eliminated or shortened considerably. Damn the ASL because it’s not the be all, end all solution. It’s much more complex than that.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
MM, why are you blaming the Deaf for making culture fashionable? Culture spontaneously arises from a gathering of people with a common language and experiences over the generations. It’s a beautiful and important part of the Deaf Community.
Please refrain from pointing fingers and blaming. We need to look at ourselves first before we can blame anyone. Blaming is both judgmental and non-productive.
Unless you want to promote the divisions in the Deaf Community
January 7th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Damn the ASL? Was it necessary to use that language, Mike?
Can we discuss this diplomatically without being hostile?
UfG is over and done with. I don’t want to rehash history.
Don’t bother to post any more hostile comments. That’s not what I want to see.
My concern is present and future.. how we can work together harmoniously without casting stones at each other?
January 7th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Well ..
Say what you want about McConnell, Ridor (among others), and myself, but imagine if we all agreed and shared the same basic philosophies and joined together and worked together?
Could you imagine the amount of change we could facilitate?
Ridor is good at what he does.
McConnell is good at what he does.
And me? I’m just a snowboarding dude, dudes and dudettes.
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
MZ, I completely agree! Focus on common goals = bigger pictures and go from there. not worth the energy focusing on our differences. Just like Jon’s story.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Give us some examples. Two cultures? What are their names?
January 7th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Poatie, we would make an awesome team, no question about that
The main two cultures I am talking about are Hearing culture and the Deaf culture. Then there are many subgroups between these two cultures.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
McConnell…
“When I meet a deaf or hard of hearing person I make no attempt to determine whether that person is a part of that “Deaf culture” or not. Or that he or she is a part of that “Deaf community” or not. Or whether the person…”
You just stated that when you meet a deaf or hard of hearing person, you just accept them for what and who they are and don’t inquire about their “status”, etc.
And unless you’ve changed and grew over time, I find that hard to believe, McConnell… I recall an email I received from you about a year and a half ago inquiring on how well I can hear and if I use the cell phone to talk to people. I do hope you’ve grown and now do what you’ve stated above.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
I think MZ is saying we should work together, concentrating on the positives. Angry finger-pointing will just drive us all further apart, and that’s no way to get things done.
For 2008, let’s focus on what unites us rather than on what divides us!
January 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Yes, I agree with Mishka Zena here… the division has got to stop. I wonder if it’s become fashionable to go back to where we’ve started. At Gallaudet during the protest I thought how amazing it was to see and feel and BE A PART of the big picture of a whole group of people who worked hard at putting aside our differences in order to reach our common goal: Eliminate Jane from her post as president of Gallaudet University.
Well, we succeeded… is that the end all of the be all of that? What do we do now? Oh, I guess we resort back to our old habits since we were only fighting on removing Jane and now that we’ve accomplished that there’s nothing else to do?
I’m disappointed to see this happening in our deaf community. Again. The fight for Deaf Unity should never end. It shouldn’t even be a fight, really.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
“I recall an email I received from you about a year and a half ago inquiring on how well I can hear and if I use the cell phone to talk to people.”
And? What does that have to do with accepting people?
It’s like asking me, “Paotie, do you have a cell phone so I can text you a message?”
Or like me asking McConnell, “Do you have Xbox 360 Online?”
Both are forms of communication. What’s the problem in asking and making sure communication can be facilitated?
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Please re-read what Mishka is trying to convey in her blog?
Look at these phrases she wrote:
“So, yes, focusing on our differences does divide us.”
She is trying to emphasize that focusing on how different we all are, especially with our language fluency, hearing status, familial and community upbringing, and educational experience, is very UNPRODUCTIVE.
Let’s TRY focus on channeling our energies toward something that WE all believe together.
Obviously – accessibility to information is something we all believe in.
Obviously – better employment and educational opportunities for Deaf people is something we all believe in.
and…
Based on Mishka’s observation, she said:
“Among us, I see a universal agreement: We all agree that deaf babies should be exposed to sign language .. just like their hearing peers.”
I want to say something…
Just like my Greatest Irony video, it is evident that more hearing babies are taught with baby signs to communicate, and yet, more deaf babies are encouraged to learn how to listen and talk through Auditory-Verbal approaches without allowing any visual cues.
Something ain’t right.
Deaf babies can benefit having BOTH, then a significant progress with their cognitive language development (visually and auditorially)will occur.
Lastly, Mishka was asking all of us to:
“Maybe we should start concentrating on what we do have in common and go from there?”
Let’s move on from focusing entirely on our differences, or trying to find faults amongst ourselves. Enough!
I want to add this phrase here:
“Can`t see the forest for the trees.
Then shall we… agree on something we all believe in, and then work together?
Amy Cohen Efron
January 7th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Paotie,
I can see your point here *smile* but no, it was a direct question of something like, “Can you speak and hear on a cell phone?” or “How well can you speak and hear on a cell phone?”
Kind of like telling a hearing person that I am deaf and then they sneak up behind me and say my name to see if I turn around in response. *eyeroll* “You CAN hear!! You’re not really deaf!”
I find that kind of treatment very disrespectful, from both hearing AND deaf people.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Paotie, Carrie was pointing out the contradiction she saw with Mike’s statement… not inquiring about the status of the person’s hearing at all.
Let’s get back on track please… Jeez, it looks we cannot even discuss this peacefully???
January 7th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Miska, mine was a figure of expression not to be taken literally. Tis all.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Mishka ..
I’m pointing out a contradiction in Carrie’s statement. She presumes that McConnell does not accept others because SHE is offended when McConnell inquired about her modes of communication.
It’s like asking, “What can we do to communicate effectively?” is now an offensive question.
Conversely, becoming enraged at a question that essentially asks, “How do you communicate?” is one that suggests the person offended is more interested in their own feelings than facilitating communication.
If hearing people don’t understand general d/Deaf/HOH issues, and then Carrie is upset about McConnell’s question, how the heck do we expect the hearing world to understand what to do, how to act, how to treat, how to hire, how to educate, how to greet, how to date, how to be friends with other d/Deaf/HOH people?
(sentence deleted to bashing)
*laughs*
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
“Maybe we should start concentrating on what we do have in common and go from there?”
I am not sure how it works. It’s going to be tough to get *ALL* together at one piece.
I think it will have a long way to go to get there……
Remember that there is a fact: we have much smaller and smaller in the deaf community.
Let’s face it.
White Ghost
January 7th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Poatie, may we proceed with this discussion productively diplomatically without bashing anyone please?
January 7th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Define “bashing” please.
I didn’t bash Carrie. I pointed out HER contradiction of HER claims that McConnell was being contradictory.
I laugh a lot. Is that “bashing,” too?
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Carrie, asking whether if you can hear is not about inquiring some person’s “status” as a deaf/hh person. It’s what happens afterwards after finding out. I get approached by Deaf people asking/signing to me if I am “HH” all the time when they first meet me. How they use that information afterwards determines whether the person is a hypocrite or not by using that against me. So, how is my email to asking you if you can hear deemed different from today? I haven’t changed. What I do with that information is for my own benefit rather than use it against a person for whatever reasons.
One deaf person I know quite well prefers SEE over ASL simply because it follows the grammatical rules of English in complete order. I’d say “Good for you!” simply because the person does it so well and grew up with that and favors it. Will I go around saying he’s “anti-ASL” simply because of that fact?
No.
How have I changed?
I haven’t.
sorry, Mishka for going off topic. I agree that all of us do have a common ground to work with and that’s narrowing the communication gap. The problem is which kind and how? Is it technology? Or is ASL the answer? It’s not that simple right now.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Unity for a common goal by setting aside the small differences means…
If we can assure deaf babies’ success at language acquisition, it raises the bar and shows the nation that the deaf community can work together on a common goal.
Achieving this one common goal for the future of the deaf lays the groundwork for other big goals, such as…
elevating educational standards, eradicating communication access issues, resolving employment discrimination, and raising the expectations of deaf achievement by those who are hearing and deaf.
Then we can bury the hatchet on 1880.
Good article, MZ.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Paotie, you know perfectly well what I meant with that comment of yours I deleted.
By the way, I am not interested in playing this game.
I just want to focus on this very important issue. Thank you.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Paotie,
Sour grapes make the best wine, didn’t you know that? *sly grin*
McConnell,
I found it very interesting that while growing up in the hearing world, nobody asked me how well I could hear, really. Because I didn’t have a deaf identity. After I learned ASL and started calling myself deaf, then people started in on the ignorant questions.
And yes, it is ignorant. Do you ask people in wheelchairs if they can actually get up and walk? Do you inquire as to if and how they transfer from the wheelchair to a public toilet? Of course not! It’s just ignorant and rude to be asking those kinds of questions.
I think it’s the same as any person, hearing or deaf, asking a deaf person if and/or how well can they hear, whether on a cell phone or not.
Okay, let’s get off this topic and stick with Mishka’s posting please. Many thanks!
January 7th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
mccconnell
i agree with you there.
do you have a list?
let us see the list…exactly what do we want unity on?
nobody is saying that he or she is anti-ASL..it is all about the process of acculturation..
a person coming to America at age 3 or age 7 may still claim to be an American..very true.. but we know some people who do not adjust easily..
January 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Ground rules are helpful in face to face discussions. Unless one posts ground rules in their blog….I have a hard time seeing that working well in blogs/vlogs. It’s the attitude and one sided view. There’s a lot of biggots among the deaf, strange, but true.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
or the process of enculturation
January 7th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Ann_C,….right. And without the need to constantly espouse “Deaf culture” or the Milan thing on a daily basis because technology has already changed the whole picture here on accessibility. Keep it neutral as possible while raising the stakes and visibility. Being “pushy” and “demanding” will not work here.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Carrie ..
Yup! You said it.
Well, if you asked a person in the wheelchair to wipe their butt, then you’re .. not right in the head.
Asking someone how they can communicate to avoid misunderstandings is not on the same plane as asking if you want wipe the buttums of a person.
I’m not bashing you. I’m just suggesting that your arguments contain multiple flaws and tend to suggest a self-centric view of the world, but I’m sure you’re a nice person and are not selfish.
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Mike Mc:
“sorry, Mishka for going off topic. I agree that all of us do have a common ground to work with and that’s narrowing the communication gap. The problem is which kind and how? Is it technology? Or is ASL the answer? It’s not that simple right now.”
It’s attitudes. Tech? Sure. SEE? Sure. ASL? Sure. That.
#19 Amy – pretty much spot on. Something to think about. Thanks.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
“Among us, I see a universal agreement: We all agree that deaf babies should be exposed to sign language .. just like their hearing peers.”
Define universal. I’m afraid this is borderline speaking for the entire population we are part of including aural/oral deaf. You really need to realize there are many hard-line deaf oralists, especially those of old-money blood, that want nothing to do with any kind of notion of babies being exposed to let alone learning sign language.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
drmzz -
Yup. It IS about attitudes. Reflect on Carrie’s comment to McConnell.
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Matt, avoid the word “acculturation.” It’s all about access and availability to help deaf/hh people feel more welcomed and respected whether it’s in the deaf or hearing world. It’s about acceptance and not about culture per se.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
drmzz, you’re not making yourself clear here in response to my comments.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Anon, so deaf babies shouldn’t be able to sign at all even though they have no other outlet of communication due to the immaturity of their vocal cords? Why not? What’s wrong with letting deaf babies communicate until they can use their vocal cords?
What topics do we agree?
January 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Ahhh .. so now we see the problem here.
As soon as we agree to disagree, we’re already arguing.
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
LOL, Poatie, you have a point there
So my question is… is there ANYTHING we do agree to work on? I am starting to feel perhaps we have too many strong opinions, meaning that we may not be able to work together well. I pray I am wrong : /
January 7th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I think you are burying heads in the sand frankly, whether divisions are highlighted or not, they are there, and if you don’t address them they widen, simple as that. Shooting the messenger doesn’t change the message. NEGATIVE ? yes it is !!
There’s no ‘blame’ Mishka, there is admiration for the success of deaf culture, but it’s not viewed as an inclusive culture, so others would copy it to an extent but not push for the same things, if it unites the ‘deaf or HI’ why not ?
I think it’s highly possible non-’Deaf’ are looking to make a culture out of their db loss as well, the disabled in the UK have already floated the ideal they have one too….. Why ? because the ‘Deaf’ have certainly gained from it via laws and things, so if there’s a bandwagon rolling they will all want on board, and why not ?
We tried an experiment in the UK whereby deaf and ‘Deaf’ used the same site, it triggered massive input in one week, the idea, was to find what was common we could BOTH campaign for, it deteriorated into factions, it polarised into BSL deaf want this, and HI wanted that, and then the ‘Deaf’ withdrew, and/or just responded to each other.
We ARE trying to find a way, it has proven very difficult almost impossible to do, until you get the worst over, you can’t proceed, they have to be hammered out (Divisions), first or nothing happens in unity terms. I think it naive I keep reading “We should bury differences, but still go our own way !” It doesn’t work like that.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
#39….Mike/Matt,
Is what the deafhood is all about, isn’t it?
What do you mean, ….”not about culture per se?”
Mike, Can you explain more specific about this?
White Ghost
January 7th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
#45. Not really since “Deafhood” implies that once you “accept yourself” as a deaf person you’ll be on your way on becoming “enculturated” into a “Deaf person,” which again is all about hierarchy. Or so it seems. I accepted my deafness/hearing loss a long, long time ago. It doesn’t mean I have to like it. There is a difference. I accept my deafness and go on with my life while keeping an eye on technology for that ground shaking moment. I accept others for who they are and for what they see themselves as. I don’t go around in the attempt to try and make a distinction whether you are a member of the Deaf community/culture or not. Simply too divisive and arrogant, if I can say that, to do that.
But that’s my view and personal opinion. Just don’t go ballistic over that.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
(deleted: too provocative)
This is a copied message from a hearing mother of a CI child sent to me. I changed all ofthe names to preserve anonymity. This is an example of several parents I have chatted with over the years. Disagreements and divisions among ourselves are pushing the hearing parents further away. What scares them more is some of our strong opinions on how they should raise their deaf child. Unity and respect for diversity is urgent.
START of MESSAGE-
“You are an example, to me, of the wonderful people who come from the Deaf Culture but at the
same time, see the benefit that cochlear implants have to offer for the next generation. It takes more bravery than it did for us hearing parents, I believe. Last spring, when it happened, one
blogger wrote that ours was not even a real site, but a fake one created by a manufacturer of CIs, because they really didn’t believe that kids could do so well with CIs and they thought it was too “positive.” Apparently they thought the domain was suspicious, too. We routinely get weird or mean comments to my child’s youtube videos. One example was, on XXX’s activation
at 6 months of age, “She’s just parrotting her mother.” Obviously that person had no clue– she wasn’t talking or parrotting, she was
only smiling and laughing because she was a tiny infant! I think some people just go around to make negative comments, regardless of what
is going on in the video. We’ve probably blocked 20 or 30 people from commenting on the youtube videos! At one point early in the summer, after getting involved and defending myself, I stopped commenting on DR blogs because one woman exposed where we lived and my last name. She did it purposely, I believe, and it was so downright mean and scary that I just quit posting. Once in awhile I do post on Jamie Berke’s site or something moderate. But I now use pseudonyms always. Never my first name. Many times they have told us that our kid will hate us, that she
can’t understand what she is hearing, and that they hope our child leave us for the Deaf Culture and never come back. !
-END of MESSAGE
Call for respect and acceptance among each other despite our different views on how a deaf child should be raised.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Mike,
Thanks for clearing up! I understand that very clearly!
That’s your personal preference, so do I!
Yeah, we are in a different world.
We CANNOT force anyone to join into the *SAME* world.
eh! Yeah. I like you, Mike.
White Ghost
January 7th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Good post. I think we all need to change our attitudes and the division has got to stop. We are also smart enough to be creative to use good words to express in the positive way…whether if we agree or agree to disagree even through that we can respect each other’s different point views.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
I see nothing wrong with Deaf people accepting themselves. In fact, I think it’s an empowering experience for them to accept themselves as whole, equal to their hearing peers. Deaf Culture, which is beautiful and so vibrant, will always be an important part of Deaf Community. It’s up to us to accept everybody as they are…. or not.
Personally I accept everybody.
Correction: I accept anyone who doesn’t bash Deaf and Deaf culture endlessly. I take exceptions to people who use Deaf and Deaf culture as their punching bag and that includes you, Richard Roehm.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
I agree that a lot of neutrality will have to be placed on the goal of deaf babies’ success in language acquisition.
Blaming AGBell for their exclusion on sign language isn’t going to get either AGBell or the hearing parents on our side. AGBell’s Goliath weakness centers primarily on the training of the deaf child to speak and be as “hearing” as possible, that’s it. There’s so much focus on speech, never mind that the child may be several grades behind or a grade or two above his hearing peers in education, doesn’t matter. The speech therapy consumes so much of the deaf child’s time and other talents/abilities don’t get a chance to develop much. The whole person gets overlooked.
It would be a better approach to not use AGBell as a scapegoat and try the positive angle of success in early language acquisition as key to a whole child. Like many deaf people, I struggle to find the right words for this concept, and the word “potential” keeps coming up in my mind over and over.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
*raises an eyebrow*
I think it is important to focus on the similarities, but what would help as well, is some damned respect for ASL and Deaf culture. It exists. Go take a linguistic course in college, and see how well you do in that class. Go take a deaf culture class in college, and please check to see if you can take a college class on oral deaf culture.
And by the way, comments like, “Damn ASL” is exactly what helps breed Deaf extremists. It is mind boggling to me how oblivious people are about how irresponsible they are with their OWN comments.
Practice what you preach, people.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Mcconnell, to clarify, I’ve seen attitudes in general whether in or out of DR that are not inclusive of ASL. To move forward, we need to advocate ASL in practice along with other comm. methods or preferences that are promoted. I have to get used to the idea that other prefer comm. methods or tech than my own. I believe ASL benefits too. We need to advocate for each other for common good.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Hmmm… good post and discussion. It is obvious we have strong opinions and I appreciate MM’s comment. I can see that we are not much different from British deaf people, wanting to find the common ground but… same here in America.
So, the need to find a common ground requires that there have to be some sacrifices to be made and it is a bit unfair, since whatever works for one person does not necessarily mean that it could work for all. Sometimes it would be easier just to accept the differences than insisting on finding the common ground which usually means only one thing.
Oh well.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
DP, I wasn’t trying to be hostile as I explained it to Mishka about the “Damn the ASL” since I said it’s not the be all, end all answer to our communication needs and preferences. Everybody is different. I should’ve put it in quotes “Damn the ASL” since I was thinking in context of Farragut’s famous line “Damn the torpedos, full steam ahead!” because focusing on trying to use torpedoes win a battle at Mobile Bay during the Civil War would prove quite fruitless. Instead Farrugut’s plowed ahead with his fleet into Mobile Bay without using torpedos to win. There are sometimes better approaches on helping people recognize ASL as a viable form of communicating rather than to “torpedo” everybody to hell high about ASL thinking it’s the end all solution. It’s not but it can help a lot of people. Sign language has its own merits for what it can do.
How about asking for clarification instead, DP like I have with drmzz instead of assuming what I was trying to frame my thoughts around? I’m not shy about clarifying my thoughts if people ask me. I can’t read their minds but I can certainly explain mine more clearly the next time.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Gee, Paotie and McConnell, you took us off on tangents so that we have difficulty attending to MZ’s message.
No matter what culture or language we use, we all strive for self-determination, to decide our lifestyles, our language, our opportunities in the hearing community. Not to have them imposed on us by others or by circumstance.
The protests at Gallaudet were about self-determinism. They wanted a voice in what happens to their college, in who would decide their opportunities while in college, and who would be deciding their options, who would be giving their community information that they go out to live with.
We still have this self-determination goal, no matter what our differences are. We all want to have the ability to decide our future and our options, and to be respected. What’s so hard about that?
January 7th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
karen, I agree. I think sometimes simply to accept the differences as they are is much easier to do than to hammer out a negotiation on what we all agree on. We already know that communication access is the number one common ground we all have. Except that pushing culture into the picture gets in the way at times. Let that take its own course naturally and focus on commonalities we have instead when it comes to communication issues. The phone issue is an excellent starting point.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
To Mike McConnell,
“Damn the ASL because it’s not the be all, end all solution. It’s much more complex than that”.
Isn’t that what they said about deficit thinking?
“Damn the ASL”, you said. This shows that you have no respect for ASL as a true language.
Mishka Zena said “They’re Trying to Divide Us”
Who are They?, that is trying to divide us?
Mike, I think that you are the main provocateur in attempt to divide the deaf community.
Paotie agreed with Mishka Zena on #2 comment until you came in #4 and Paotie changed and played along with you, Mike McConnell, the deficit thinking provocateur.
Mike, Mishka Zena is trying to bring us together but in your #4 comment,
“Sorry but that’s how I see it as well as many others. We can have common goals on a variety of issues but as long as you have ideologies and cultural promotions you’ll continue to have friction and disagreements”.
So Mike, you are indeed a major provocateur and your main objective is to divide the deaf community.
Sally
January 7th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
I wasn’t using deaf culture as a punching bag in the post. You’ll see it on youtube when you get the chance.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
RE: anna s.’ comment.
The zealousness of extremists on both ends of the deaf spectrum doesn’t reflect very well on all of us deaf. The zealousness reinforces what the public perceives of us as a bunch of crazy militants because of the outrageous claims and bullying. In this case, it has already branded a deaf child thru no fault of her own, and alienated yet another set of hearing parents. Not a pretty picture of the deaf community or Deaf culture. *sigh*
drmzz, I’m not advocating only one communication mode for the deaf child. The goal for early language acquisition thru sign language is so that a deaf child can easily learn ANY languages that he/she finds most comfortable with as the child starts growing up and entering school.
Children who learn multiple languages early do far better in their schooling than children who are only monolingual. The deaf child would certainly have some learning advantage over the average hearing child who learns only English, for example.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
WELL, GET LIFE THRU ON WHERE WE GO ON OUR OR THEIR LIFE NO MATTER WHAT DIFFERENT WHO AM I BEING WITH ONE WORLD OR TWO WORLD WHO GOT EXPERINCE THRU LIFE BEING HEARING WORLD OR DEAF WORLD SPEAK COED SPEECH OR ASL, DEPEND WHAT YOU GONE TO LEARN IN MANY DIFFERENT LIFE MEAN TO US.REALLY SAME AS HUMANS BUT DIFFERENT HEAR OR NO HEAR DOES IT MAKE DIFFERENT WORK TOGETHER GET UNDERSTAND HOW FEELING BEEN GET ON REAL LIFE OR MIX LIFE THRU EXPERINCE SOCAIL LIFE.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
“Among us, I see a universal agreement: We all agree that deaf babies should be exposed to sign language .. just like their hearing peers.” I agree. The question is… who’s leading the group in this unity? I am sorry to say I have a few people in my mind I do not want them to lead due to their strong opinion or/and their skills in twisting the facts. Ann_C reminded us neutrality and embracing diversity is required in the success story of the unity among people.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Sally, I point out these realities by asking questions. Personal attacks by accusing people of being “deficit thinkers” or call them as “provocatuers” do not help the situation at all but to point to yourself as being as one. What I do is to get people to think critically, and not accuse people personally.
Ok. Sally. I’ll bite. How have I “divided” the deaf community? Because I ask lots of “taboo” or uneasy questions and that I’m solely responsible for their own downfall? Because they don’t want to get along with other people or accept people for their own ideas and identities or that there is no one shoe fits all reality to it? If that disturbs you then how can you or the community move forward without acknowledging these problems? Exactly what are my “deficit thinkings” here? Care to elaborate and give me my Scarlett Letter?
When have I personally attacked you for your views or opinions? Or people in here in Miskha’s blog? Hmm? But you can, right? Because….why?
I have always advocated on narrowing or closing the communication gap among the 30+ million people with hearing loss. Just because I don’t play to anyone’s particular tune does not make me to be a bad person. Nice little lob of an accusation there, Sally, on trying to out me. Or so it seems on this end of the picture.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Good one, as usual, Mizhka! I only read the first few comments and am thinking about the “agreeing to disagree” thing and it’s making me wonder just exactly how do we proceed after we “agree to disagree”?
January 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
The deaf community needs “devil’s advocates” who ask the “what if’s?” It’s not divisiveness, it’s independent thinking based on trying to understand different views on an issue, Sally.
The name-calling or labeling reflects a personal bias and does little to contribute to the discussion.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Exactly, McConnell. Everyone’s different. Yet I see you on one end, and DE/Ella on the other, screaming over each other and blaming each other for the Deaf Community’s problems because nobody’s respecting the differences.
You know what? I think BOTH ends are responsible for our problems. Neither of you practice what you preach.
And I think it’s also the moderates’ fault too, because we’re not telling both of you to shut up and to go away until you start practicing what you preach.
If people truly want to respect other people’s differences, then they need to be tolerant of the fact that ASL does work the majority of the time, and yes, other communication methods also work for some others. But that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m seeing absolutes here.
BOTH sides are guilty of that.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Mishka:
The only day TRUE Unity for Gallaudet happen is when the protesters reach out for real to the divided campus and say a true public apology. That’s when REAL UNITY FOR GALLAUDET (RUFG)finally happens. Until then.. the campus may remain divided a bit until the next president is elect into office and proper.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I blame no one. I have time and time again discussed that each of us have a different perspective on things. I have neither advocated oral fully on, and at the same time I have neither advocated ASL fully on. My advocacy for the narrowing of our communication gap with hearing people and among ourselves are not at all extreme. Rather it’s taking into consideration everybody’s experiences and feelings.
DP, you say “fact” and that if people don’t accept that “fact”then that means they are simply “intollerant.” I disagree. It’s not always the case. It could simply mean that people have an opinion about that “fact” and may very well depend on a lot of circumstances. There is no absolutes in this case.
My position has not changed since the day I stepped onto the campus of Gallaudet 20 years ago to this very date. I have always believed in closing the communication gap. It’s the how that we’re trying to get at and for which group or who. I have always practiced what I preached because I believe in closing the communication gap whether it’s technology or signing for *all* little babies.
I believe people have the tendency to mistake my “uneasy” questions as being an extremist when it’s nothing more than asking “uneasy” questions that begs independent and critical thinking. It’s a challenge to a lot of people’s own sensitive sensibilities. And when that happens, knee jerk responses are usually the case rather than to look deeper at the issue.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Since MLK is the big topic on Deafread this week, and considering the way this conversation is going, I want to suggest something:
Tolerance begets tolerance.
Intolerance begets intolerance.
Okay.
Mishka, I am sorry if I offended you in the past. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or angered you or your friends. I could have found a better way to communicate my perspectives to you.
We both agree that Deaf culture is at a crossroads. We both want to protect Deaf culture.
How do you feel we should do this? One example is fine. And if people can hold their criticisms until AFTER I’ve commented on her answers to me, that would be great.
Likewise, the same could be repeated for my response to Mishka’s answer.
I’m just throwin’ this out there. I want to help Deaf culture and all this infighting is retarding progress far more than anything a single one of us could do.
Okay?
If ya’ll are down with that, let me know.
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Deaf Pundit –
That is what I said in #3! We are all different. Nevertheless, we have no right to control people’s views.
Thus, both ends are responsible for our problems. What can I do? *NOTHING*
DRMZZ –
Whoa….I disagree with you.
You stated “I’ve seen attitudes in general whether in or out of DR that are not inclusive of ASL.”
To be honest with you, DRMZZ, that your grammar is terrible. I am sorry for me to say that…..but, what kind of grammar is that? Please don’t get me the wrong picture.
DR is welcoming any people to include any language to enter this DR! We saw a “deaf” blogger who spoke in spanish and english to enter this DR!
White Ghost
January 7th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Whew! Think I just got flattened by a Mack truck here. Just when we’re supposed to be on the goal of unity, the finger-pointing starts all over again.
Hey, ppl, I’M trying to be positive here. As MZ has pointed out, Is there some way we can unite on a common goal without the SMALL differences getting in the way?? And the differences really are small compared to how a deaf child’s education has everything to do with a deaf person’s success in life. To affect a change in a future person’s life, so that we can all make a contribution in the success of a deaf Martin Luther King, or a deaf Einstein, or a deaf Picasso, a deaf John Glenn, a deaf Harvard president, and so forth. Think outside of your own boxes, for a change.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Good post Mishka! Always enjoy your posts. About your statement about focusing on the differences of many deaf people does cause the people to divide among themselves.
How true!
Since, I am bilateral implantee and cuer. I am also fluent signer. But many people focus on the facts that I have two implants and I prefer to use cued speech transliteators over ASL interpreters. They would excludes me from many activities and events… I even had few Deaf people who told me that I don’t belong in the deaf community. At first, I thought that Deaf people are more tolerant and accepting of other people no matter what they have or whatever. But after meeting many people, reading various blogs/vlogs, and that includes the comments that was posted under this post. You all proved me wrong.
That’s why I prefer to keep my contacts with the deaf community to minimum.
Here’s my two cents…
January 7th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Mishka,
Like you, I am interested to seek what unites people, not what divides them. However, to understand the root of the problem, unfortunately, it forces us to analyze what divides them at the first place.
Naturally, everyone has their own opinions and they are entitled to it. In this case, there are varying opinions that are focusing on whose denomination is better/right, which communication method does it work for Deaf babies/children, which type of education brings in the most outcomes, and the list goes on.
Not only do opinions/reactions divide people outside of the Deaf community, it divides people within the community. I think most of us know who and what cause this division but it is not important to me right now. The main problem with this dilemma is that all of these people are losing sight of what is important…having an 100% accessible language, ASL, (even more accessible than spoken English) regardless of their hearing level, for Deaf babies. Heck, they are doing it with hearing babies and they can hear. Do pray tell why are they doing it? It is obvious that they have packed research showing the benefits. For example:
Earlier communication abilities
Increased IQ
Earlier speech development
Enhanced self esteem
Reduced frustration
“Most suggest using American Sign Language (ASL) because it’s easy to learn, standardized, and an official language used by the deaf community.
Signing not only increases the parents’ bond and interaction with their babies, it helps reduce a major source of tantrums and stress for infants. It also creates a more physically expressive environment.”
Source: http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_33/b3694165.htm?scriptFramed
Now that you have compared this to either religion and politics..how interesting! So it brought me to think about:
Division in the Deaf community is the same as segregation/division of the different races, cultures (even inside the Deaf culture), genders, age groups, companies and the employees within the companies, and any other group you can think of.
Division breeds jealousy, hate, envy and many other bad feelings. When we divide/segregate, we lose these positive and up-lifting qualities. This needs to stop!
Now, someone challenged you whether if this statement you wrote is true:
“Among us, I see a universal agreement: We all agree that deaf babies should be exposed to sign language .. just like their hearing peers.”
Although it may not be realistic to say ALL, but I think what you meant to say is that there is a majority of people in the Deaf community agreeing to this statement. Have you considered a poll or something like a survey to prove this hypothesis?
I wish I could remove the pain of Deaf babies who are lagged behind with language because it is not accessible to them in the first place, remove the pain of criticism of CI children and their parents, remove the cause of the division of the Deaf community and the list goes on.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way because we don’t have the magical powers but we can work this out at least by having a healthy dialogue that comes with respect to the point that will help us understand better on how to react.
Mike said, “My goal I like to see is that the communication gap be eliminated or shortened considerably. Damn the ASL because it’s not the be all, end all solution. It’s much more complex than that.”
I don’t feel that it is necessary to curse ASL, Mike. I know what you are getting at about this torpedoes thing but frankly, my dear, I don’t see how your analogy flies. However, the only thing I agree with you is that you said “ASL can help a lot of people” but I wonder what do you do about it to help people understand that ASL is helpful other than criticizing people who “torpedo everybody to hell high about ASL thinking”? By the way, who says that it is the end solution? Nowhere did I see that anyone said it. Are you making an ASSumption or what?
January 7th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Barb ..
Where in the Deaf culture manuals does it state that McConnell MUST help people understand ASL is helpful and la la la la la?
Why is that HIS requirement? Why is that MY requirement?
Now you imposing conditions, which is not conducive whatsoever.
Setting a boundary is one thing, but to state conditions is another thing entirely.
ASSumption, my ASS.
*laughs*
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Sigh…Digi. I wasn’t cursing about ASL. It’s an expression so to speak which is why I used Farragut’s famous battle cry and results he got afterwards. In other words, there are more ways than one to approach a situation. Though I explained I neglected to put it into quotes. And, Digi? Let’s not lower ourselves mentioning certain donkeys here by getting personal. It goes no where with me or anybody else.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Intelligent, rational people base their opinions on facts.
And it’s astounding to me how often people have brushed aside scientifically valid statistics and research because it doesn’t fit their worldview.
A good example of this: Gravity is technically a theory, but it’s accepted as a fact. Everything in essence are just theories, but society in general does accept that facts do exist.
Someone can have an opinion that gravity doesn’t exist because it’s *just* a theory, but the person who thinks that, is going to get ridiculed out of the room.
But people don’t hesitate to brush aside ASL and Deaf culture, even though there’s REAL science backing those two up!
Statistics have shown time and time again, that ASL does work for the *majority* of the deaf. Note, I said majority, and not all.
Research as well has shown time and time again, that there IS a Deaf culture, and NOT a blind culture, or a wheelchair culture, or an oral deaf culture. If I am wrong about that, then feel free to show me the statistics and journal articles that disagree with my position.
Now… moving on to the real topic of this blog…
I’m all for closing the communication gap. But for that to happen, people have to respect that what may work for one person, may not work for the other person, and we shouldn’t begrudge them of that, or disparage that.
I see plenty of disparagement when it comes to ASL. And I see plenty of disparagement when people decide to have a cochlear implant.
That, for once and all, has to stop. They can co-exist, and we need to recognize that. We don’t have to necessarily like it, but if people are sincere in closing that gap, we need to let that happen.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Paotie, oh Peyote..or is your name Dawson?
Anyway, what are you? Mike’s lawyer? Did he hire you? If so, hopes he pays you well! Actually, I think Mike can speak for himself *chuckling*
You are trying to put the words in my mouth, huh? Where did I say that Deaf culture stated for people like you to help people understand ASL is helpful you ask? Why, if you read a bit more carefully about what Mike said earlier:
“It’s not but it (when he refers to ASL) can help a lot of people. Sign language has its own merits for what it can do.”
So for you to claim me to REQUIRE him to help people to understand ASL is your words, not mine. Are you trying to stir the pot or what?
By the way, I asked Mike a question whether if he made an assumption not necessarily me making an assumption so it is now YOU making this ASSumption about me. Why, sure, it is your ASS all along!
*chuckling!*
January 7th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
It seems like Mike doesn’t agree with sign language for deaf babies, only the technologies. I think he’s simply against it without saying outloud, “Yes, I am against it.”
January 7th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
White Ghost, don’t make me laugh. I treat English like a pig at times the same way some treat ASL like a pig.
No, it’s not about that. It’s like some prefer to promote their own views while excluding the other. Also, for example, outside of DR I came across,
“Testing may help babies get life-changing devices” article while checking CalDeaf site yesterday. I disagree with the CA State medical consultant with the Newborn Hearing Screening program’s highly focus on auditory-speech interventions. She feels her center is “lacking” compared to other states and that the deaf infant is “quickly” referred for auditory interventions. I’m thinking, “Whoa! Slow down! What about ASL? There is NO mention of ASL intervention at all. No mention of two state Deaf schools, Fremont and Riverside either. This is a system that is not playing fair to me. Industry and state has joined hands at their own discretions.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Why, Mike..when you said “Damn ASL”..that can be easily misinterpreted especially when you write it without seeing your facial expression or tone. Like I said, I got your drift when you are applying this as an example of Farrugut’s famous quote.
Remember when making the “Gone With the Wind”? The makers of that film got in trouble and got fined for letting Clark Gable say “Frankly my Dear, I don’t give a damn” way back when that film was new. It can still be considered a not so nice way of speaking though, so I try to be careful in the use of such words in a similar manner as curse words. The use of ASS is just simply a donkey nothing compared to your choice of words though.
Ok, let’s go back to the meat of the topic, shall we?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
mike
i agree with you about extending common courtsey..
but to impose one’s values on others will be wrong or tough to do..
can we co-exist? yes
still people must face facts ,including the scientific facts..
i do appauld your efforts to closing the gap or finding a happy middle ground..
there will be events or occassions for that but not all of them..thats the real world
i see now accessibility is on your list..what else?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Mike and Paotie,
Please go take a shower
And find a new life elsewhere.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
WAD, you haven’t been following my blogs or comments about signing for babies. I’m here to correct your false thinking on that.
Technology cannot help babies which make sense that babies be taught signing (rather than say ASL) to help facilitate communication with their parents, hearing or deaf.
Here’s my statement from elsewhere that I commented about this very recently:
“My belief is that technology alone is the single biggest answer to that problem but it certainly does not answer to babies who do not have an alternative avenue to communicate with their parents. Which is why I advocate signing (rather than say ASL only) for all babies until they are ready to move on elsewhere or continue to develop their own sign language which may include ASL. Then again it may not. It may include SEE! Or cued speech. Or a combination of those. Or just maybe it’ll be on developing aural skills alone. As long as parents make an informed decision on where to go from there I have no qualms or complaints. It’s easy as that. No forcing. No extreme ideologies. Only the fact that if parents are completely and fully informed to make a decision on where to go with their deaf/hh child.
And secondly, I don’t see babies with hearing loss as “Deaf babies.” That implies that the Deaf community owns them. At least it does to me. I see them as deaf babies. Babies aren’t born culturally intact.”
That’s my own personal view. Take it or leave it.
This has been my view since the days of Gallaudet going back some 20 years ago. I saw where technology was taking us being already quite familiar with technology and such and I continue to expect to simply get better and that I’m not surprised where it has taken us so far when it comes to communication.
We ain’t seen nothing yet.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Deaf Pundit, well-written comment.
We all have our own opinions and we know what works and what does not work. We all want to narrow the communication gap, yup. I personally have seen how ASL works for my daughter and how ASL has not worked for my son… nothing wrong with it, it has to do with being an auditory learner and being a visual learner. The majority of deaf children are visual learners so that is where ASL or other visual language methods come in… no argument from me.
Yes, we can learn to co-exist… embrace the diversity, which is not an easy task (easy said than done, yup.) Will it happen? I am sure we could co-exist… what is required for all of us to exist amicably with each other? So far, it seems to me that ASL is the answer for many people and it is not the answer for other people.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
matt, how am I imposing my values when they are my opinions just as you show your opinions on the subject of certain deafness-related issues?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Correction: “lagging” not ‘lacking.’
January 7th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Digi…I said “Damn the ASL” (not “Damn ASL”) which is the very same way Farragut’s said his “Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!” which was not about cursing his torpodoes. That would be true if the torpedo didn’t explode on contact with another ship would that be cursing. And it’s no more of cursing than you try and use the donkey expression even though the word alone can be seen as a derogatory and curse word. But you say it isn’t but you certainly did CAPITALize on that opportunity. So…..?
*shrugs*
January 7th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Barb ..
Family Guy would love you!
And that’s not a slam/bash! It’s a compliment!
)
Paotie
January 7th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Wooooooooowwwwwwww!
I can see that we are going to somewhere with all this type of dialogue.
I seconded to all what Barb said. Some certain people need to stop twisting around with words and pointing fingers at whatever they believed to be the culprit for the division. I could point out contradictory statements made by some commenters here, but it is pointless, really.
In answering MZ’s question, my suggestion is just move forward leaving behind those with negative attitude. When they decided to become more productive, they can decide to work with the rest. We don’t need those crabs slowing down our progress. Wow, just exactly like Jon’s story.
Okay, I’ve said my piece, and will let you back to your bickering session. I’ll just go forward with the group who is focusing on ACTION.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
just one clarification on the last paragraph, I was referring to those who focused on finger-pointing and complaining – not to you, MZ, smile.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Ok, then tell me why is it different for babies who are born in American-Italian families earning a capital I (as in “Italian”) although they haven’t been immersed in Italian culture or language or that they might not in their lifetime?
So it is okay to call them with a captial I but not okay to call them with a capital D just because they have not been exposed to culture and ASL?
Just like any ethnic minority groups, the Deaf has been recognized as a minority linguistic cultural group who have their own language, values, shared experiences, common behavior, and traditions. My intention of using capital D in Deaf babies have a different definition than the traditional view of d/D. It doesn’t mean that they have already acquired Deaf culture or ASL just yet or may not at all just like some babies in ethnic groups. It has nothing to do with ownership really.
Since we capitalize names of all races, nationalities and ethnic groups regardless when they are immersed in the culture or language, it breaks the English rule using small letters when writing asian boy or latino girl and so on so it goes the same when writing deaf.
You don’t have to agree with me but this is how I see it.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Poatie and Mike,
I do see subtle dissing in your words. That’s why Barb responded the way she did. Nobody is blind to these innuendoes. You are not innocent like you act. I’ve seen this repeatedly in both your blogs.
Easy does it, will ya? You’ve been derailing this thread constantly.
I want to focus on what common goals we have that we can agree on working together. Let’s concentrate on that.
Consider this the final warning
January 7th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
MZ
thanks for trying
common ground – we probably have to cast the largest net to find it
this might work – NOW (national organization for women) had bumper stickers and other items that said:
Feminism. The Radical Notion That Women Are People
i think we could all probably agree on the assertion that deaf people of all shapes and sizes are HUMAN TOO
this i believe is not commonly held by the dominant culture if we r to look at the use of the word people as NOW used it
in the film Audism Unveiled (pls no comments assaulting the term “audism” is needed here – lets not digress) but in this film which was produced by three professors at Gallaudet University
the resounding theme and conclusion of the film was that
DEAF PEOPLE ARE HUMAN
this may be too simplistic for some but i think the key is do we deaf, hard of hearing, hearing impaired, CI users, ASL Deaf want to normalize what it means to be deaf
is that one of our goals?
there is an AMAZING speech by Frederick Douglas – he had been invited to give a speech at an Independence Day event in Rochester, NY in 1852. While their intentions of inviting him were to show the glories of the nation that would allow a Black man to become free and a leader etc, instead Dougass used the opportunity to have the crowd examine the institution of slavery that still existed in the South.
it is one of the most brilliant examples of American Rhetoric i have ever seen – oh how i wish they had camcorders and youtube back then
the reason why this speech comes to mind is because it illustrates as with women and as with deaf people African-Americans have also had to assert that they are humans
Douglass does an amazing job doing to by showing that it is ludicrous to need to do such
Baynton’s book “Forbidden Signs” discusses the notion of normalcy and natural and how it means completely different things depending on onces center (oral only or bilingual center)
Deaf people are HUMAN too – radical notion sadly for some bu thankfully not for all
again as i have said in other places – i feel we have far more unity than we do division
even if someone surfaces to take contest with the idea that deaf / hoh people are human or that this is not a universally accepted notion already – we need not pull at our hairs – to each their own. or it may inspire another sadistic satire – i can easily imagine how it would read
not matter
eye on the prize folks
peace
patti durr
MZ – again i thank u – it was a noble attempt
January 7th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
What’s the difference between Paotie and peyote?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
link to the frederick douglass speech mentioned above
ttp://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=462
peace
p
January 7th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
sorry when i copied and pasted the link – i didnt get the “h” in “http”
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=462
January 7th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Mike.. I said “Are you making an ASSumption or what?” (not “You are an ASS”). So the word isn’t even alone when I asked you a question. As for your case, you just blatantly say “DAMN the ASL” which is much more obvious.
Oh, can you turn off the damn light?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Time Out
Can we take a breath and start all over again?
I am now moderating this blog.
Can we focus on what we do agree?
Or shall I close this post for the day and wait for another time to try again? Or not to try again?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
I think you should close this post because you are so popular…..
White Ghost
January 7th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
I see two proposals so far on what we do have in common.
1.) Deaf babies should be exposed to sign language just like their hearing peers.
2.) Deaf people of all shapes and sizes are HUMAN TOO.
Do I hear more proposals?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
MZ, you remind me of the crab in the middle in Jon’s story.
let me give it another shot, throwing in ideas what I thought are important issues that could possibly (possible, not certain) be agreed by everyone or at least majority of us.
-sign language for deaf babies
-include sign language in all possible avenues when giving educational information to parents. this option is always intentionally left out; or if it was mentioned, it was always to discourage the exposure of it.
-improve deaf education at all settings (residential schools, mainstreaming schools, oral schools, etc etc).
-improve deaf ed training programs at colleges and universities (there are so many students graduating from those schools with minimal or no sign language skills).
that are as far as i just thought of. let’s see the others’ thoughts.
MZ, is that what you were looking? if not, then oops, just delete this post.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
hey y’all..
These issues that most of us agree to work on… is very similar to World Federation of the Deaf’s proposal:
The World Federation of the Deaf (WFD) is an international non-governmental organisation representing approximately 70 million Deaf people worldwide. It is estimated that more than 80 percent of these 70 million live in developing countries, where authorities are rarely familiar with their needs or desires. Recognised by the United Nations (UN) as their spokes-organisation, WFD works closely with the UN and its various agencies in promoting the human rights of Deaf people in accordance with the principles and objectives of the UN Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other general acts and recommendations of the UN and its specialised agencies. When necessary, WFD uses special, legal or administrative measures to ensure that Deaf people in every country have the right to preserve their own sign languages, organisations, and cultural and other activities. Most important among WFD priorities are Deaf people in developing countries; the right to sign language; and equal opportunity in all spheres of life, including access to education and information.
Is that what we want in America?
Amy Cohen Efron
January 7th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Here is my thoughts
Create a phenomenal tipping point that every parents in America will realize that to teach their hearing babies sign language(ASL) is a must to start the communication before their vocal chords are developed.
The domino effect of this phenomenal discovery will surely hit the parents of Deaf babies.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
deaf babies not Deaf babies, please. This signifies ownership regardless of what “Digi” has to say. It bothers hearing parents seeingthat the Deaf calls thier young Deaf instead of deaf. Middle ground please.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Thank you, anon.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Anon has a point– nobody “owns” these babies, d/Deaf or hearing.
What can this tipping point be? An independently run (meaning no AGBell or ASL agency backing) and published study of the early use of sign language with babies and the results? Logically I can see how this may alter obstetricians’ and audiologists’ thinking and subsequently, the thinking of hearing parents of deaf children, if what we deaf know from experience and history is validated.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Anon and Mike,
No intention of signifying ownership, I was focusing on the big picture.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Ann_C
Malcolm Gladwell, from Washington Post, wrote a book call “The Tipping Point”.
How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference
This is a very interesting book to read.
John
January 7th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Amy –
Point taken.
…..”and equal opportunity in all spheres of life, including access to education and information.”
to me is that it is *NOT* just only for sign language, it is for all of us including cued speech, oral, sign language, and others to participate the WFD.
It is about the prosperity and acceptability.
White Ghost
January 7th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Please drop the D! This is coming from deaf of deaf. Once we get rid of this distinction, it will be one less step to this divide.
On another note, Ellas say the divide isn’t coming from the deaf (in her words: DEFINITELY NOT THE DEAF PEOPLE!!!) I’m definitely befuddled.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Personally I feel it’s pointless to try to blame anyone.
I think it’s more productive to move ahead and try to co-exist peacefully and be able to work well together without cultural frictions dividing us.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
John,
I’m familiar with Gladwell’s book. I’m asking DR readers what this tipping point can be? I threw one idea out there that can possibly turn into a tipping point, something that can be validated by both medical authorities and by the deaf community. What about other ideas?
January 7th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
MZ, after comment #103, the same people start to get nitpicky over usage of D and d. Are they part of bigger pictures?
January 7th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
brenster, if we are to look at the bigger picture then we need to stop dividing. When one uses D to distinguish from d, then it causes division. Unity = one = one d!
January 7th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Ann C,
I have one idea, just one word that might work…
Oprah
January 7th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Deaf Pundit
You hit the nail on the head in your brilliant,
concise, and succinct comment (#66). Alas, as of 11:53 p.m., they STILL do not see it “under their nose”.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:07 am
C- There are two sets of different definition about D/d. one set: D/d – the one you are continuing to lean on. another set: just D for all; just like what Barb explained earlier. Look, just what MZ said let’s focus on what we do agree, and D/d debate clearly is not one of them.
Well, MZ, you tried; I give that to you. It looks like this topic once again is drifting off thread. I’m done with this thread and will move on.
Thank you.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:10 am
I don’t see why we can’t use Deaf to refer to everyone. It’s a ethnic thing in a sense, much like Barb explained. No matter what choices a person that is not hearing makes in terms of communication, socialization, etc, they are not hearing. They are different from hearing people, whether they be oral, mainstreamed, deaf of deaf, Gallaudet graduate, grassroots, et cetera, et cetera. This is true, much like Latinos who are migrant workers and those who are in powerful positions. They all share something in common. So do we. Deaf celebrates and honors that something that we all share, no matter our background and preferences. More and more people are using Deaf in this way, not to show who’s a member of a certain group and who’s not. That division is old hat to many of us and we reject the notion of division.
Unity – one – one D!
January 8th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Deaf is not enthic. I would know. What it looks like now is that deaf are changing English grammar rules. What if it was the other way around, hearing changes ASL rules? And besides, anyone who is not blind will agree that it definitely causes division, otherwise, you wouldn’t have someone mentioning it in the first place and I wasn’t the first person to mention it.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:49 am
The Internet provides a distorted view of the community, for various reasons. There appears to be an exaggerated sense of conflict when viewing posts on blogs. Many of these posts are of very little importance, being made quickly and spontaneously–posts which have a very short “shelf life.”
If a scientific study were conducted, I’m sure it would sure that there is greater unity in the deaf community now (post-UFG) than there has even been, in the last several decades.
Don’t let the Internet fool you.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:51 am
Please stick to the topic:
Exactly what do we all agree on?
thanks
January 8th, 2008 at 12:58 am
I think we all agree there is a problem with divide in deaf community.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:05 am
How about making a paradigm shift in thinking about what defines Deaf vs. deaf to the future of deaf children?? They’re the future, ok?
Never mind us going ’round and ’round in circles over this deaf vs. Deaf, because in the future, those kids are going to wonder what the hell was it that we fuddy-duddies were fussing over? Hell will freeze over by the time any of us will agree to anything, is that it?
I’m not talking about culture ideology or any pie-in-the-sky theory here, I’m trying to ask what will work in the here-and-now that will advance deaf children beyond us after we’re all dead and gone. Huh?? Yeah, ever thought about legacy, folks? What do you want for the future deaf to remember us by? The bickering?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:05 am
Thank you Brenster and Cali. The last thing we need is to label who is a d or a D in Deaf..just make a D for ALL where we can be unified!
January 8th, 2008 at 1:48 am
John,
What about Larry King or 60 Minutes or 360 View? Oprah’s show isn’t in primetime. Means going VERBAL maybe, yikes. Closed captioned, of course.
Nevertheless, reporters or interviewers are going to want facts upfront, and an unbiased, published study of early sign language for deaf babies with validated results will be convincing material, even to hearing parents of deaf children.
As for the little d and big D, well…we can duke it out later.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:51 am
*sigh* C, we aren’t changing English rules. This has been discussed above. And it’s also been discussed why people are moving away from the old (your) definition. I’m not going to engage you on this, except to point out that you seem to be ignoring the points that people have tried to make here.
To answer your question, MZ, I think many of us agree that sign language should be fairly presented to parents.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:06 am
#119 C, ok, it seems like you THINK you KNOW that Deaf is not an ethnic group but let me tell you something..I tend to research plenty of facts as much as possible and here I can show you that it is not me who makes this up but the researchers so read on..
Check out the website based on a book, “Raising and Educating a Deaf Child”
http://books.google.com/books?id=m_8Kb53ioJgC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=is+deaf+an+ethnic+group&source=web&ots=ZwTyC7wiS2&sig=3NnOyN8azUuYE0QsjudgC0yIUgg where Mark Marschak recognizes that “there are several authors refer to Deaf people as an ethnic group.
The definition of an ethnic group according to Oxford English Dictionary stated as one delineated by a cultural background and claiming official recognition of its group identity. From this perspective, some hearing children of Deaf parents also are part of the Deaf ethnic group, even though they are hearing.”
So I am not sure where are you going around accusing the Deaf changing English grammar rules? (*cough, cough*)
Sorry Mishka..I really wanted to focus on moving forward to focus on what unifies us but I feel that I need to clarify my point of view. I agree with what Brian said..the internet can be distorted than what is seems to be. In reality, I do mostly live in peace and unity in the local Deaf community which is a wonderful blessing to have. I have befriended many parents who have Deaf children, with or without CI, many hearing teachers of the Deaf, and so on. I am involved in several organizations serving parents of Deaf children and I tend to find their views in a positive light.
This blogosphere is somewhat different to me that I’ve noticed the contribution by the very same people who don’t invest with their positive thinking into something productive. I mean it is ok to be challenged which is not a problem but to be scrutinized over and over again is becoming an old school. Go and take Deaf studies, Deaf Heritage, Structure of ASL, etc. before you jump to conclusions.
January 8th, 2008 at 6:01 am
People will just switch off, they don’t think of their deafness or loss that way or allude to to the culture or which is the best or right way to communicate or educate the deaf.. You (Barbie), are staying a view from one sector, not an majority view, that’s the problem. You have a right to that view, just as others are going to turn around who want deafness got rid of or something, because no two deaf people are ever the same. I think with more bloggers coming in from the non-’Deaf’ worlds will see even more opposition to the cultural viewpoint, they will find deafhood, and deaf culture not relevant to the issue as they see it, most do not see sign language as integral to their cultures. These are individuals (Bloggers), who sat on the fence or simply were persona non grata in the ‘Deaf’ world for many many years and now taking the oportunity to give their 10 cents worth, there is a lot of pent up frustration and anger over what went before, and opposition to some stuff that goes on now too.
The ‘Deaf’ community had more cohesion in the past and stuck together, they are quite vulnerable now. The ‘deaf/HI’ had no focus or groupings at all for 50 years, the net has changed that, there will be a lot of casualities before the ‘war’ is over… We might see eventual acceptances, but we won’t see unity of deaf and Deaf.
January 8th, 2008 at 6:35 am
Oh wow.
MZ, don’t feel bad about your posting opening a can of worms. At least we all acknowledge that we have different opinions of what the common ground should be (we all agree that visual languages are ideal for the deaf babies, due to the majority of them going on to be visual learners.) We differ when it comes to culture. Okay. My concern is how many hearing parents read this kind of blog and other blogs and see the disagreements and they might think uh no, I’d not want my deaf child to grow up in that kind of atmosphere. It does not reflect well on Deaf Culture.
So we acknowledge there is a divide… we know that for a long time. MZ asked, I believe, if we could just focus on one thing at a time… visual approach to deaf babies to be added to AVT, to make it ideal and that it would help speeden up the deaf babies’ cognitive development, etc.
Yes, Barb… many parents and many staff for that matter here in Indiana rarely bother to read DeafRead but concentrate on their daily lives, so they are often happy and more acceptable in real life. One can sense the deaf unity in real life (social gatherings, talking about general stuff [almost never about DeafRead or Deafhood… I noticed I was the one who talked about it last year so I made the resolution not to talk about these topics this year since I notice that they are content and productive.)
Good article and good discussion, MZ.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:36 am
The “unsolved” question: how can we solve if there is no-no d/Deaf?
It’s all about the attitude problem.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:44 am
Barb, all I can tell u is i’m deaf of deaf. It’s my opinion. Obviously there’s no agreement on that, so there will always be division on that particular discussion. I’ll leave it at that.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:06 am
i once was at an open forum on the eve of a controversial insult comic coming to RIT to perform – the forum became a DEBATE
one side trying to convince the other of their POV and vice versa
when i left the meeting i was like – “shame on me. there was no need to try to clarify and explain and assert. a better use of our time (for the folks protesting the insult comedian’s upcoming performance on campus) would have been better spent if we left out of the forum and began discussing our plans to civil resistance on this topic
i believe this is how we become distracted and disheartened and further disenfranchised
in many ways it is our own doing – choice to buy into this debate. the volumes of academic books, articles, and films speak volumes.
i think it may very well be best to shift our focus to positive, peaceful and proactive planning
this requires time, good hearts, good courage, and to keep our eyes on the prize
Unity does not need to mean EVERYONE thinking the same
it does mean that the folks who are in agreement – MOBILIZE and ACT
this was the beauty of DPN – there was UNITY
at the same time a saw many Deaf folks saying the felt Zinser would be the better president due to being about to SPEAK to congress and lobbying and $ blah blah blah
trying to apply self-fullfiling prophecy onto their Deaf peers – they tell me i cant succeed in hearing environments if i dont speak, i believe them, in turn i set myself up to fail in hearing environments due to this belief system
Unity does not mean all
it means those who gathered agree
so maybe one goal is:
to find a group of like minded folks who can agree on common goals and ACT peacefully
WFD is a nice model
anti-defamation league is another nice model others have mentioned
goals (or could be mission):
1. unity
2. empowerment
3. advocacy / activism
objectives:
1. All D/deaf are HUMAN and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights (liberty and equality being chief rights)
2. sign language is the birth right of D/deaf children (folks who dont agree need not apply)
3. natural sign languages are to be cherished, explored, expanded, and celebrated
4. Potential D/deaf offsprings should not be terminated (preimplantation or in utero) based on their being D/deaf just as a person should not be allowed to terminate based on gender or race etc
This MEANS:
We have a dream that our children will one day live in a nation where they are will not be judged by their ears /mouths but by the CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER.
peace
patti
peace
patti
January 8th, 2008 at 10:15 am
MM said “most do not see sign language as integral to their cultures”. I don’t know where you get that because this is the opposite from what the researchers said and wrote in their books.
There is no Deaf culture without American Sign Language. Just ask the experts (Padden and Humphries and even your countryman, Paddy Ladd. Whatever the culture you are taking about doesn’t apply to Deaf culture. Deaf culture without ASL is not defined.
C: I respect your opinions like you do mine. We are both Deaf of Deaf, so what..what it matters to me is for us to keep an open mind and accept each other’s differences. Regardless that we may disagree on certain topics, I think we both agree on the big picture: allowing Deaf babies to have accessible language, ASL, isn’t that right?
January 8th, 2008 at 10:16 am
MM, Deaf culture is already well defined, with its own language (ASL), traditions, heritage, and art, etc. I suggest you read some literature on this area.
Thanks, Patti.
I agree.
I would like to add a fifth: empowerment of D/d people so they will experience positive self esteem and self confidence, so they won’t experience oppression from hearing people.
I hope others feel this is also very important.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Karen you’re right on that, there seem to be more of a divide here on DR due to the topics being presented. Many don’t read DR, for some it is too complex to get involve in discussions or they’re afraid they may say something and get jumped on real quick. Many are content with their life as it stands. Most are respectful of other’s opinion, unlike here on DR. It’s the medium (internet, blogs, etc.) that you see the difference in real life and internet world. I know for sure if I met Barb in person and she presented her views I would agree to disagree and move on to other less conflicting subjects. I’ve gotten into heated discussions with extended family members, but, then again, that’s family for you~
What I am really seeing here is that it is farfetched to expect everyone to reach an agreement over certain hot topics/issues in this medium.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:23 am
yikes
lots of typos in my comment above – my apologies
peace
patti
January 8th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Well-written comment, patti. Glad to see that you used “natural sign languages”, since you are talking about world (perfect, coming from WFD.) We need to think in a more worldly way, seeing that there are MANY cultures, not only one culture, but the common ground is that we all are deaf or Deaf or d/Deaf, depending on people’s preference.
Isn’t NAD part of WFD or a member of WFD or what?
January 8th, 2008 at 10:59 am
re: 133
Point of Information – knowing Barb – i am sure she means no Deaf culture without a natural Sign Language for that community (not specifically must be ASL)
while the comment may appear to say she means ASL for ALL DEAF PEOPLE ACROSS THE GLOBE – i know from having watched her other vlogs and knowing her personally – she recognizes that each country has its own natural sign language associated with its Deaf culture
She is speaking of U.S. Deaf culture as the example i assume (and i know assumptions are dangerous but this one is based on a pattern of knowledge about Barb and her world view and understanding of Deafhood, language rights, and culture)
im not trying to rescue here but rather clarify because as C noted the medium of blogs/vlogs and the comment sections does not always inspire us to do our best “understanding seeking” before we click submit
also when i blogged a bit about ______?________ culture – a comment was raised if we rename Deaf culture for US Deaf people to ASL culture we are excluding other Deaf cultures around the world that use a different national SL
so im leaning towards Sign Language Culture
i am also very interested and aware of the WFD activities to try to stop ASL from becoming a colonizer of other world SLs – which in many ways it has already sadly begun to do
so im just commenting now because i dont want to see accusations of AMERICANCENTRIC Deaf culture when Barb’s comment above was simply trying to assert…
______ (put in name of country or groups SL)____ Sign Language and Deaf culture go hand and hand
re: C
yes the medium of blog/vlogging is very powerful
its quick
its addictive
its impersonal but can become very personal
ur comment gave me pause
maybe some of this negativity and barking at each other is really just a way of saying “look at me, im important, i want ur attention”
with my kids i often have to ask – wow why are they acting up so much right now and it usually is there way of screaming out for attention. they cant really articulate it. they cant really step back and say – hey i really like when u interact with me when they see us busy with some other task – so they sometimes cause a ruckus so we will stop what we r doing and give them a scolding
negative attention is still ATTENTION
let us spend more time giving each other positive attention or shifting our attention to places worthy of our goodness when we can not find anything positive / constructive in the matter
MZ = fifth: empowerment of D/d people so they will experience positive self esteem and self confidence.
cool – me like
it is really important however to remember that the process to positive self esteem and self confidence is pretty relative two ones upbringing
i think this is the heart of why D / d has gotten so sensitive
i mean if u think about it – it is just the size of one single solitary little wee LETTER – we r not even talking about the word – we are talking about the height of a letter
if i read some of the above comments right
folks who want to use small d (physical deaf view) because they feel it represents their selfhood properly are offended when folks try to use D as a blanket to cover all
the opposite is true
folks who want to use big D (cultural view) because they feel it represents their selfhood properly are offended when folks try to use d as a blanket to cover all
the poor word d-e-a-f – before it was a negative thing and now everyone wants it for its own
so if we r gonna truly and honestly add ur 5th item – which i support. we gotta understand that how one gets this self-esteem is not a “enter ASL door and u automatically get it” – i know you are NOT saying this but we gotta really and truly be open to folks who feel F-I-N-E about being small d deaf and prefer it that way
we gotta say – me happy for u – “oh u r interested in learning ASL, oh u wanna know about Deaf culture, sure welcome…”
self-esteem and self-love really come from self-acceptance
for D/deaf folks this is often a tricky place/process due to sense of belonging and fitting being so tricky within the dominant society and even within their own (hiearachy, false divisions etc)
so if by 5th – we say – hello u r deaf (yes i mean small d here)
welcome – u r loved. we r same in our hearts whether u choose to join Deaf ASL culture or not – we still have the bond of oneness
This is a tricky and sticky thing for an oppressed culture to do due to how the “differences amongst us” have often been used “against us” by the dominant society and within
but i do think doable
MZ – im gonna apologize again for posting yet another long comment
seems ur site often inspires alot of thinking for me
merci beaucoup for that
peace
January 8th, 2008 at 11:08 am
You said…
“P.S. When I mentioned UfG, I meant the unity among the protesters only.”
That ONE sentence alone divides us all.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Yes Barb, except I’m not too keen on the caps.
I think that information on ASL should be shared with first time parents of deaf babies about ASL. They need to know that, no question about it. I believe that the final decision should rest with the parents after they have explored all possible method and/or language.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Karen..how true that there is a different type of reactions among people in the blogsophere and in person. It is important to remind ourselves to discuss this debate in a diplomatic way as much as possible but sometimes emotions get in the way.
About your concerns when hearing parents read this kind of blog, I don’t think the way you do because if you take a look at other blogs written by hearing people, they are no better either. Their comments were not so often pleasant and rather harsh even more than what we have commented. It is like saying oh I don’t want my Deaf children to be raised in this hearing world just because they were divided on the ‘net. We are just human beings and being Deaf has nothing to do with how we commented but just to talk about the topic like any hearing would do. Unfortunately, we have seen a divide in all communities even in ethnic and religious groups. Why did we have civil wars? Religion wars? Boundary wars? It definitely has nothing to do with being Deaf for sure. Also give us some credit, the Deaf haven’t even engaged in a physical war like the Muslim (Sunni/Shiite groups) or Irish (Catholic/Protestant groups) do. For whatever reasons it happened, it doesn’t mean I should shun my Deaf children away from these people since not all of them are like that.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Well, patti, you got me interested in:
“i am also very interested and aware of the WFD activities to try to stop ASL from becoming a colonizer of other world SLs – which in many ways it has already sadly begun to do”…
Guess, I’d have to check the WFD website out and so what it says.
I agree with patti about Barb. Having known Barb personally, I understand where she is coming from.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Correction:
bottom comment should read:
so if by 5th – we say – hello u r deaf (yes i mean small d here)
welcome – u r loved. we r same in our hearts whether u choose to join Deaf SIGN LANGUAGE culture or not – we still have the bond of oneness
exiting the blogsphere now – smile
peace
p
January 8th, 2008 at 11:25 am
True, Barb.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Supporting information to pdurr’s comments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal
I thought some of you would like to read this.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Thanks Patti for the clarification. Yes, I was using America Deaf Culture as an example according to Padden and Humphries’s book “Inside American Deaf Culture”.
To somewhat similar that I had mentioned in your blog, “_____?_____ Culture” that we should not continue to divide us further from the world by being egoistic just to identify the culture, an ASL Culture; instead I would rather use “Natural Signed Language Culture” representing all continents of the world. If we just say Sign Language Culture, it may be confused with MCE (SEE1, SEE2, etc.) Adding the term natural means unrestricted interactions among people who use them as a primary communication system, not devised or derivative sign languages intentionally invented by some particular individuals to represent spoken language. But I do know you Patti that you intentionally mean that Sign Language culture in a natural way.
Cheers,
Barb
January 8th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Re: 132
One word bothers me in the goal. It’s activism. If you look in the dictionary, it will say vigorous action on one side of a controversial issue. (i.e. protest) It gives me the impression the unity eventually will fall apart due to unneccessary argument over little or big things. What do you think?
I am comfortable with advocacy. How about advocacy for social justice?
For the goal, I suggest to add:
4. equal rights of the D/deaf person on all levels and in all categories
5. zero tolerance on D/deaf discrimination
January 8th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
ASL culture may well have a definition but it doesn’t apply to everyone Mishka, that is the basis of most dissent about it, the suggestion it IS. Why would ‘deaf’ people, or oralists, or CI wearers, or acquired and deafened lip-readers, want or need to read about it ? They know it’s there, it all went belly up when you all started playing pass the deaf parcel with capital d/D lettering… and now on some ‘crusade’ about deafhood, again applied to everyone within range….The ‘D’ may represent cultural deaf to some, but it represents a LOT of division to others. No amount of gilding the lily is going to change the fact unity for deaf and Deaf is an impossible dream, until they drop it. Is deaf.read ‘Deaf’ centric ? I don’t think so… The minute a cultiral deaf p[erson or a HI person may clash, there’s a groundswell of ‘leave the poor Deaf alone..’ this belies they considerable hype being pushed out by them,that triggers all the aggrevation. There seems some unwreitten rule culture can do no wrong,and if it does, it’s not right to take it to task, while everyone else from hearing to near as dammit deaf are fair game… I fear a lot of people simply do not want to hear about reality, and go about online like some sort of 60s flower power group…
January 8th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
smile
i agree completely with ur assessment and reasons for wanting the N in a SL culture – N for Natural
i think my hesitancy to abbreviate it as such (NSL) above was because i know other sign languages may already be called NSL and didnt want to co-opt that
Nepalese Sign Language for example
i thought perhaps Nicaraguan S L but it is
Idioma de Señas de Nicaragua which i assume gets abbreviated as ISN
but not sure
in the old days it seems folks in various countries referred to it as THE sign language or the Natural Language of Signs
NSL Culture works fine for me … for now smile
thanks for ur note
peace
p
January 8th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I understand DPN Protest means Deaf President Now.
UFG doesn’t sound like Unity Among Us Protesters but You, Fernandes, Go! Protest.
I enjoyed reading comments and this blog.
Cheers,
NotSure
January 8th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
WAD, as you know, I’m an advocate, but I am also a Deaf activist. Being an activist doesn’t mean protesting all the time. It means being active in encourage social change. It’s pretty much another word for advocate. It’s just that people tend to connect the word protest when the word activist comes up.
But I don’t think people should fear using the word activist. It does have positivity associated to it.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:08 am
There are ‘activists’ and activists I think. There is always an extreme element, and it the extreme element that triggers 80% of dicussion, not the hard-working who attend meetings, try to get access set up and plod on day in and day out, (The unsung heroes), while the extreme element exists on ‘sound bites’, and literally, thrive on the D for division. They are the most adept deaf we have sadly. “If ONLY..” these people could be pursuaded to get stuck in to the system, instead of shouting outide and rabble-rousing instead. It’s probably all about ego-building !
January 9th, 2008 at 9:40 am
DP, you are right that some of them are very positive.
It’s the impression I receive when reading various news. For example, Cindy Sheehan. What people think of her as an activist? Probably negative especially on how she handled even she’s doing for a good cause. Believe or not, some terrorists are considered as activists!
I prefer the cooperative movement as they usually does not protest or confront. There are many different types of activism. There are some approaches I dislike such as violent confrontation and a few others.
Sorry for being off the point, I just want readers to understand my reason for not being comfortable with the word, “activist.”
January 9th, 2008 at 10:25 am
[...] But do we need to obsess about these differences constantly? Mishka Zena recently wrote a succinct post stating that she felt this was not necessary, and I [...]
January 9th, 2008 at 11:57 am
WAD:
There is absolutely nothing wrong about a word, “activist” per se!
Not wanting to be an activist worries me!
I am very proud when one says that I ACTIVELY participate in anti-hunger, anti-poverty, anti-genocide-on-Darfur, anti-Iraqi war rallies here in Washington, D.C. and New York City. Many scholars, including sociologists, philosophers, linguists participate with us. I have never missed seeing the world-famous linguist Noam Chomsky in the rallies with us in DC and NYC.
Being a non-activist is a cardinal sin. Being neutral, indifferent, or apathetic. Dante puts them in the last circle of the Inferno.
Back to square one, it was wrong not to act when we learned that the White House — through the U.S. Department of Education — gave an “ineffective” grade to Gallaudet University and an “effective” grade to the NTID. We must ACT to save Gallaudet University.
You hide your head in the sand like an ostrich, refusing to understand the source of a violence. It is the police who make a mountain out of a molehill. Remember a university student who was Taserised for speaking out at Senator Kerry’s lecture. Very matter-of-factly, Kerry told the
police that the activist’s freedom of speech is healthy! Meaning what? Yours is the reversal case!
January 10th, 2008 at 9:01 am
The title of this blog was “They are trying to divide us.” THEY are never really defined, and the problem with that is to allay ‘blame’ which mostly gets directed at the non-ASL or non cultural deaf.
As for ‘dividing’, what, is to divide ? People sign, people, don’t, people love culture, people can’t see the atttraction or point, people like CI’s others hate them. Divide ? there would BE none if each respected each others point of view. How do cultural deaf accept, non-cultural ideals that want the basis of that culture removed ? i.e. their deafness, and sign replaced ?
No-one is dividing us all, we are entirely different people obviously, who just happen to be deaf as well, who have issues bumping along together !
January 10th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I forgot to add, for us to be divided, we would first, HAVE to be united surely ?
January 10th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Oooh boy!
That is the first thing that comes in my mind: oh boy! I do not want to start a war and we really dont need a war. I would like to say a few things and then go back to MZ’s original post.
I came a little late for this post and had to catch up by reading 157 posts! Few comments jumped at me:
White Ghost #130′s comment which I must reply to.
How about we just say what we want to say and accept it? For instance,
If i want to spell out Deaf and if you wish to say deaf; then so be it. I will type Deaf and you will type deaf and we should respect other’s preference and leave it alone. This is a same principle as white/black people. If I am talking to my Black friend and I say “you are white, you must accept my opinion,” eh? You and I know know that we cannot change the color of our skin, right? we must accept the difference of our skin and culture!
So bottom-line we should accept other people’s differences. Another point I want to make is: hearing/deaf people are different no matter how deaf we are, whether we like it or not. Each group: deaf and hearing groups have their own dynamics created by family backgrounds, experiences, cultures, etc. which makes each of us unique. It peeves me that we end up divided within our own deaf group because of “trouble-makers”. I risk by being bombarded when i say “trouble-makers” but its true. Some of us ignore the real purpose MZ wants to accomplish. Some people threw in offensive words and brings us far from the main subject MZ wants us to work on.
MZ wants to go ahead and move on and she has stated that numerous times for us to let go and move on to more positive approach. Who cares about ASL, SEE, CI, ORAL, etc. So what!
Lets reread MZ’s orginal post:
They’re Trying To Divide Us
“It is simply few people who are trying to divide us.”
Over the past several weeks, I’ve caught some people commenting on how others tried to divide us. All I could observe is a clash between two different cultures. Their differences, the products of diverse upbringing, don’t indicate that they are “trying to divide the Deaf Community”. The more we try to change people, the more they resist as we all have a fundamental need … to be accepted for what we are, without judgment.
There will always be differences between us… trying to force us to accept one set of values perceived as better than another set of just causes more friction. It’s just like religion and politics. The more we preach about one religion, the more tuned out the recipient will be. Many times people agree not to talk about politics and religions for a simple reason: The passionate discussions about the differences between us produce negative energy, resulting in combative arguments and angry feelings. So, yes, focusing on our differences does divide us.
Focusing on our common goals channels our energy toward a positive and productive environment. During the DPN and UfG protests, we put aside our differences to fight for our much beloved alma mater. We can do that again, and work toward common goals… instead of fighting among us due to our differences.
Among us, I see a universal agreement: We all agree that deaf babies should be exposed to sign language .. just like their hearing peers.
Maybe we should start concentrating on what we do have in common and go from there?
P.S. When I mentioned UfG, I meant the unity among the protesters only.
January 7th, 2010 at 7:56 am
I am hearing impaired…I have serious problems with deaf culture mainly because with my cochlear implant and my hearing aid I can hear without those things I am deaf totally deaf…My frustration with deaf culture is this sadly many totally deaf people can become hearing individuals
I know I make some people upset with my feelings but have experienced many and some radically deaf people once they see my cochlear implant it is like a line drawn in the sand.
Some say learn american sign language sadly in all my relationships I know of no one who signs…Who am I going to sign with>
Some say go totally deaf I just can’t do that I was born hearing and do not wish to change my whole life at this time…If by any chance I do lose more of my hearing then I will contemplate the use of sign language and other means
I also have seen many young very young kids as young as seven months benefit from a cochlear implant…Those kids will never need extra help as they grow older and their options will be far more then the few in the deaf world
Deaf culture is shrinking and it is going to keep on shrinking till many come on board….
This reminds me of the time when the first auto was seen on the roads while most people used horses…I can bet the makers of many buggy whips felt somewhat of a sting no matter how good their buggy whips were…Sadly today the car replaced the buggy whip and horses have become a rarity more seen on ranches then riding down our streets and roads…SAme goes with cochlear implants…One time when I was first implanted a deaf person I talked to on line told me that cochlear implants can kill you?
If they did I am doing fine now and have conversations with many people I would of never been able to…My granddaughter calls me all the time and we talk and I hear her or that bird in the morning sometimes makes noises I would of never heard had I not gotten my implant…
Peace
taximnjim