AGBell Nazis…. Deaf Nazis
This comes from a reader named “Who cares?”, responding to my husband’s post yesterday. In case you may be wondering why I’ve been silent lately, I’m not feeling well.
Anyway…”Who cares?” illustrates the current conflict we are faced with. We want to educate the hearing parents on the value of a Bi-Bi method. But are we using the right approach? This person doesn’t think so.
How would you respond to that reader? MZ
.
From a reader Who cares?:
Here’s a fact whether you all like it or not: Hearing parents have a God-given right to make certain decisions regarding their children, even if they are deaf. I have seen a number of deaf blogs claiming this is not so. Hearing parents should HAVE to send their children to deaf schools, even if it meant sending them out of state. Hearing parents should HAVE to choose ASL over CI. I saw one deaf blogger come dangerously close to saying that hearing parents should just have their deaf children taken away, so that those children could be raised by deaf.
If I had a deaf child and was doing research to try and help me in my decision of what to do, I would be very turned off by the blogs on Deaf Read. What you all need to do, instead of making yourselves look like a bunch of Deaf Nazis, is foster respectful and caring outreach to these people. Show them why it would be better to chose bi bi education, instead of oral only. Let them see happy well-adjusted Deaf adults with careers, homes, and families. Even if the parent choses CI, who says that child can’t also learn ASL and have both?
Ninety percent of deaf children have hearing parents. The future of the Deaf community depends on the choices these hearing parents make, and I see you all doing rather a lot to shoot yourselves in your collective foot.
P.S. Please read more carefully. Who Cares? wrote the post, not MZ. Obviously anyone who assumes I wrote this has no clue who I am, nor reads my blogs. Smile. MZ
This comes from a reader named “Who cares?”, responding to my husband’s post yesterday. In case you may be wondering why I’ve been silent lately, I’m not feeling well.
Anyway…”Who cares?” illustrates the current conflict we are faced with. We want to educate the hearing parents on the value of a Bi-Bi method. But are we using the right approach? This person doesn’t think so.
How would you respond to that reader? MZ
.
From a reader Who cares?:
Here’s a fact whether you all like it or not: Hearing parents have a God-given right to make certain decisions regarding their children, even if they are deaf. I have seen a number of deaf blogs claiming this is not so. Hearing parents should HAVE to send their children to deaf schools, even if it meant sending them out of state. Hearing parents should HAVE to choose ASL over CI. I saw one deaf blogger come dangerously close to saying that hearing parents should just have their deaf children taken away, so that those children could be raised by deaf.
If I had a deaf child and was doing research to try and help me in my decision of what to do, I would be very turned off by the blogs on Deaf Read. What you all need to do, instead of making yourselves look like a bunch of Deaf Nazis, is foster respectful and caring outreach to these people. Show them why it would be better to chose bi bi education, instead of oral only. Let them see happy well-adjusted Deaf adults with careers, homes, and families. Even if the parent choses CI, who says that child can’t also learn ASL and have both?
Ninety percent of deaf children have hearing parents. The future of the Deaf community depends on the choices these hearing parents make, and I see you all doing rather a lot to shoot yourselves in your collective foot.
P.S. Please read more carefully. Who Cares? wrote the post, not MZ. Obviously anyone who assumes I wrote this has no clue who I am, nor reads my blogs. Smile. MZ
December 19th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
I have to tend to agree with him although he used harsh words.
I can say that Barb DiGi has provided wealthy information on her v/blog that I hope is one of the top searches when googling on the internet. She provides a sense of calamity environment and is a very intelligent researcher and teacher with years of experiences and observations.
I don’t know about others… anyone else want to offer any references here?
December 19th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
MZ-
Just curious here. Do you scold AGB for not giving parents options to allow their Deaf babies and children use ASL for communication and education? Do you scold AGB for not willing to work with DBC to support babies and children use ASL? Do you scold AGB for allowing Drs and Parents to have their Deaf babies get CI while knowing it is a great possibility that babies may experience side effects? Do you scold AGB that babies with CI have to see audiologists on regular babis for remapping and have no way to communicate with audiologists? Do you scold AGB for promoting AVT on Deaf children without using ASL to enhance their speech and listening skills? Why do we have to be scold at while we stand up for our rights and belief and for Deaf children? We have been slap on the face for cneturies and it is time for up to speak out but we get spanking and scolding for it. We leave AGB alone and quiet. We can’t do that anymore.
December 19th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
“I saw one deaf blogger come dangerously close to saying that hearing parents should just have their deaf children taken away, so that those children could be raised by deaf.”
I know a few Deaf parents who were threatened to have their Deaf children taken away because they did not visit a social worker, an audiologist or a school district representative. I wonder why we are more upset if hearing parents are affected and more and completely indifferent when it comes to Deaf parents.
December 19th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Hey, that’s a load to lay on MZ, isn’t it? However, I’ve no fear she will respond to your satisfaction. She’s great at that!
Just out of curiosity, what’s YOUR specific method of achieving all you want for deaf babies/children?
December 19th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Ooops, my question (at position #4) was directed to Penny.
But as long as I am here, Carl, what makes you think we don’t get equally ired when deaf parents get the same treatment of which you speak? We do.
December 19th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Penny,
Had you read carefully, you would have noticed that I didn’t write that post. The reader put it in the comment section to my husband’s post. I felt it worthy enough to post it whole so the other readers can see what Deaf Community has to respond to this person’s comments. Please address your responses to Who Cares?
Second, if you had to ask me these questions, then obviously you don’t know me well nor have you been reading my blogs. : )
December 19th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
This is a classic example of Deaf automatically blaming Deaf for stirring up “trouble”. It’s NEVER AGB’s fault, but always the Deaf “Nazis” for scaring hearing parents away.
AGB sure raised us to impose horizontal violence on each other! With friends (bloggers) like this, who needs the AGB to destroy the Deaf community?
December 19th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Hearing parents do have the final say (as is their right to) about what they want for their deaf child. Deaf people’s job is just to raise awareness of what is available for every deaf children/babies of hearing parents. That is all we can do. We cannot force any parent to make a decision. The good thing I see now days is more hearing parents are more involved in their deaf child’s life than ever before. That is a good thing. Bottom line, every children needs to be loved. That should be first and foremost.
Who cares made a valid point about hearing parent’s view on us bloggers when some of the bloggers/vloggers have this attitude that goes beyond advocating.
December 19th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
There are certain limitations that need to be recognized and respected, such as the parents’ rights to choose which educational path is of benefit for their deaf children. There’s nothing we can do to force them to teach the children ASL. All we can do is tout the benefits of ASL as the preferred langauge to foster their language development.
While I recognize that the Deaf Bilingual Coalition is still in it’s infancy, it needs to continue to develop and grow, and along these lines, learn what limitations there are to its’ platform and influences.
Again, as I continue to tout, we mustn’t blame, but rather, take charge of our future and identify areas where we can create a long lasting positive impact.
BF
December 19th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
beenherebeenthere – MZ supports Bi-Bi approach.
She wanted to show what one’s observation of deaf v/bloggers when it comes to searching for information on their deaf children.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
I do not support anybody telling parents what to do and fully support for parents to learn everything about how and what a deaf baby/child needs.
But here is the problem, the deaf people are not the Nazis, it is AGBell, they are the Nazis. The Deaf people have been victims(like Jews) since 1880 and the AGBell Nazis have been dominating the Deaf education and language.
AGBell gets their foot in the door to brainwash the parents and many parents later got upset when their deaf child did not come out as AGBell had promised.
My advice to learn about how to raise a deaf baby, educate the child in schools is to talk with deaf adults(age of 18 to 35 or more) and find out if AGBell’s ideology was appropriate for them.
Socialization of those deaf people victimized by Nazi AGBell is the most, biggest problem in adulthood.
Do your own homework, don’t let AGBell’s smooth talk fool you.
John Egbert
(victimized by AGBell)
December 19th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Carl,
You got to be kidding me when u mentioned that some deaf parents almost had their deaf children taking away because they did not visit an audiologist, social workers or school district representative. It’s very difficult for me to believe that ever happened. Who threaten those Deaf parents? It has to be something a lot more than what you mentioned. Anyway it is not important cuz today that will never happened.
Also, that is a very difficult situation in which hearing or deaf parents have to sent their deaf child away to school due to lack of resources near where they lived. We all should feel upset if that were to happen to anyone that we know whether the parents are hearing or deaf. They both suffered. I wish you stop comparing whether we feel more sorry for the hearing parents more than the deaf parents. That’s not the point. Bottom line it is a situation that no parents want to go through!!!
December 19th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
*laughs*
Funny how people don’t take responsibility for their actions and blame other people or things for it.
Paotie
December 19th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
I am in toto agreement with Iammine in #1. I consider Barb DiGiovanni as an extremely well researched professional in the ASL linguistics, education, and Deaf history. Hearing parents of deaf children should also be recommended to read the blog of Dr. Candace McCullough – Sharon Duchesneau about mental health of deaf peopoe. Albeit independent from DeafRead, DeafAcademics-L, wherein professors and scholars around the world contribute about the education for the deaf, should be recommended as well.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Parents, whether hearing or deaf, have the right to raise their deaf children the way they wish. Would you, as a parent, like it if some so-called authority told you your deaf child has to attend a deaf school (or a mainstreaming school, for that matter), that you have to choose ASL (or oralism, for that matter) for your deaf child, against what you feel is in the best interests of your own child?
I realize that many Deaf feel that their advocacy efforts for the deaf child are ignored.
Perhaps one should look at the words being used to protest AGB and AVT– “scold”, “brainwashing”, “not allow”, “birthright of the deaf baby”, etc. These words smack of a militism and anger that comes across as negative to parents. The anger really shows through. We D/deaf have all had terrible experiences, yes, I’m not invalidating those feelings. But emotion is not a good trump card when presenting something that may influence parents at a critical point. One is unconsciously thinking of the hurt and anger he/she experienced in the past and projecting it onto the parents, not his/herparents, but strangers.
The lack of language options is something that parents, hearing or deaf, will also be leery about. To propose ASL only/ oralism only is a pretty lopsided presentation. Yes, AGB has been aggressive to the point of not allowing other options, but just because AGB does this doesn’t mean that those advocating for deaf children have to do the same. In fact, by being more open and accepting of other options including oralism would make advocacy for the deaf child a more transparent organization, one without hidden agendas, and one that parents of deaf children will likely trust more. Because they will know that the organization truly advocates all options for their deaf children’s futures.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Ann_C,
just one thing… from what I understand, I do not think there’s an advocacy for ASL-only.
that’s all.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
“Because they will know that the organization truly advocates all options for their deaf children’s futures.”
This is the reason I’m involved with Hands & Voices. (www.handsandvoices.org). They advocate “what works for your child is what makes the choice right.” Bottom line is simple–we need to get families communicating and and building language skills with their deaf and hard of hearing child.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
John,
It is amazing how much you blame AGB for all of your shortcoming in life. Using terminology such as AGB Nazi is going way too far. It’s sounds like every deaf person that grew up without ASL or around other deaf people are suffering like you today. That’s not true at all cuz I am not one of them.
I grew up in a mainstreaming program as the only deaf student in school. I did not learn ASL or meet deaf people until I arrived at Gallaudet at the age of 18 yrs old. My upbringing was very good as I received a lot of love and attention from my parents and siblings. My parents made a decision on how they wanted to raise me and incorporate a plan and stuck with it. I considered myself successful despite growing up without sign language. I had a normal childhood just like everyone else. Sure it was frustrating at time but that’s life and I just made the best of it. The most important thing is I had support from my parents at all time!!!
We needs to stop blaming the AGB, CI Dr’s etc etc because they are doing nothing wrong. Their intentions are well meant even though we made disagree with it including me but there is nothing we can do about it. Leave them alone. We needs to advocate what we believe is the best solution for each and every deaf child. We present our ideas/methods to the parents of the deaf child and hope they understand and accept it. If not, then that is ok too as we can futher help them by introducing deaf people with similiar background such as mine so they can see how it was done.
I am thrilled about the new organization Deaf Bilingual Coalition (DBC) and what they are doing. However one thing I would change and that is stopped attacking AGB as it is a waste of time and totally unneccessary. They can say whatever they want and DBC can say whatever they want and allow the parents to decide from there. I don’t see AGB stornming into everyone home that has a deaf child and brainwashing the parents. They are very good at marketing their products/methods and DBC should do the same. In due time our ideas/methods will slowly grow and more and more hearing parents of deaf children will accept our approach. It will take time but it is never too late. We must forget about AGB and the CI organizations and just worry about what we want to accomplished and that is having every deaf babies being exposed to sign language.
December 19th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Steven,
Your comments – please create a vlog. I am in a full agreement with what you wrote on MZ’s blog.
It is helpful to have the Deaf Community to see, understand and watch AG Bell’s ways of marketing and their areas of strengths (fundraising, connections with political circles, involvement with medical community and using ‘right words’ to frame parent’s wishes to have their deaf infant to listen and talk), and the Deaf Community need to use AG Bell’s approaches and frame them to DBC’s mission that dual language approach (visual – ASL and written English, AND listening/speaking IF the young child has *some* residual hearing or have an implant) is appealing to them too. It is an additive way of thinking.
We need to spend our energies to make sure each state have its law that ASL is a recognized language in high school curriculum. We need to spend our energies to create a new occupation called ASL mentors and make them trained and certified. We need to spend our energies to go to Universities to give presentation to training audiologists, speech language pathologists, early intervention specialists about the benefits of ASL. We need to participate conferences and provide papers/speeches. We need to create DVDs, books, curriculum, information clearinghouse, etc
We need to spend advertising dollars and fundraising efforts to get our message out.
Look at what AG Bell did, and they did it so well for over 100 years, and we need to look into ourselves that we need an organization like DBC (Maybe a better word or whatever) to show there is an ATTRACTIVE choice than AG Bell’s.
We need to be careful how to choose words that makes it positive, upbeat and appealing. We need to watch our language that may end up sounding bitter against AG Bell. Imagine bottle up all of the bitterness, anger, frustration in many Deaf people going through the system in the past, channel them into something positive! That is a LOT of energy!
DBC needs to focus their energy to create products, methods, research, and be a critical reviewer of research that was done on CI babies which was skewed to the favor of listening/talking approach.
Many AVT clinics do *select* their best subjects and collect data of their successes. There are abundance of data that was not been researched are young infants and toddlers who are Deaf with serious additional disabilities PLUS Deaf children with non-English speaking homes.
Yes, 90 percent of deaf babies are from hearing parents, but a very large percentage comes with additional disabilities or from non-English speaking homes.
We are spending a lot of money fighting injustice in our lives – yes, we are royally screwed – but SO WHAT? Put our money in a right places!
Study AG Bell Association, don’t spend too much time fighting against them. They will NEVER respond to us or change their ways. Study them, and use their tactics… to OUR FAVOR.
Amy Cohen Efron
December 19th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
The point here is, yes, AGBell has done some things that are wrong.
But that doesn’t excuse us from OUR accountability for our own actions!
Doing whatever it takes to win, is wrong. We need to win with our integrity intact. If we behave with integrity, and show that we are more ethical than AG Bell, and that we KNOW our stuff, we will get there and win.
Not crap like screaming for censorship and saying, why are you holding me accountable for my behavior?! *sobs*
December 19th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Yah!
What Deaf Pundit said.
)
Paotie
December 19th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
I noticed that John recently brought up yet another defense, using Candance’s vlog as a crutch.. saying that he meant deficit thinking instead of deficit thinkers. This is yet another attempt of grasping at straws by John. Furthermore, this shows that John thinks we are all idiots and can have wool easily pulled over our eyes…
For him to claim that he butchered the English language is extremely ridiculous given the fact that he has written a book, which incidentally also used the English language. Come on… writing a book is no small feat. Not everyone has written a book.
He’s still trying to cover his ass. A simple apology will do… ignorance is no excuse.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Accountability defines credibility, too.
I agree with DP.
Amy–Eloquent comment.
brenster– John E. of DBC is constantly railing against AGBell and advocates ASL for deaf babies in almost the same breath. It appears to many who read his AGBell.info blog, especially for the first time, that he is advocating ASL only. His anger is getting in the way of his good intentions.
And even you will have to admit there are some on the blogosphere who want only ASL and no other for deaf children, and that is an exclusive approach that doesn’t apply to every deaf child’s situation. CI’s are here to stay, whether any of us like or not, and those of the Deaf culture who propose ASL-only are not getting the big picture.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
I stand beside Amy with her comments above.
We must continue to study and learn how they succeed, how they make their connections, how they get their funding, how they are in the right places at right times, etc., We can do these same things.
We have plenty of success stories, research, progress, accomplishments, and so forth to be able to present parents with more and better choices besides AGBell’s one-sided views. Let our success stories speak for themselves; rather than having them see us angry at the world, at eachother, and running in circles like chicken without heads.
We need to stop analyzing ourselves to death, creating and learning infinite terminologies and labels to try to explain whats wrong with ourselves, and why things are happening to us. Sure, we need to understand ourselves and the world around us, so that we can move forward and make it better. But the key is this – move forward. I see that we appear to have spent so much energy being angry to ourselves and the world, to the point that we are pretty much are paralyzing ourselves into inaction and inefficient.
We know that learning and teaching in ASL, being a visual language, is the best language for the Deaf, regardless of their background, remaining residual hearing, having CI or not. We must welcome ANYONE to ASL, and by embracing ASL, they will succeed.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Ann C
You said,
“CI’s are here to stay, whether any of us like or not, and those of the Deaf culture who propose ASL-only are not getting the big picture.”
Show me links that “Deaf culture who propose ASL-only” are not getting the big picture. This is not true and why are you doing this?
If I don’t receive any links or facts about Deaf culture who propose ASL-only, then we should consider you having that deficit thinking character.
You need to stop this deficit thinking.
I have no problems with CI, it is the biased ideology of banning ASL. Please support bilingual ideology.
it is you, not getting the big picture.
John
December 19th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
First off, I want to say that Amy’s persepcetive is right on.
John, you’re not making things any better for yourself by calling people deficit thinker. Especially when you’ve chosen the path you’ve taken so far.
What Anna is talking about I believe and I see it too, are comments from certain deaf people when talking about AGB and DBC, these people are advocating ASL only in comments sections. Now, we’re all smart enough to know that not everyone “speaks” for DBC mission. It’s like the protest at Gally, one person says one thing and everything got blown out of proportion in the media over some student’s comment which does not necessarily reflects the reason for the protest by the people that started it. So..this thinking by certain people in deaf culture that advocates ASL only is hurting DBC. Perhaps, John, You need to reiterate DBC’s mission again. I know you don’t advocate ASL only but there are people that does when talking about AGB and DBC.
December 20th, 2007 at 1:54 am
Another term that is similar to “deficit thinking” is “self-repressed.”
For example, some women are self-repressed if they believe they are not equal in moral worth to men, etc. There are many examples.
December 20th, 2007 at 9:32 am
What?
That’s stupid.
That ain’t “deficit thinking” – that’s low self-esteem.
Need more words to make yourself feel better as a woman, Brian?
)
Paotie
December 20th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Boy,
Some people are just permanent, perpetual victims of their own selves.
“My life sucks!” = deficit thinking
*laughs*
)
Paotie
December 20th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Paotie –
What? Again….obviously it is not clear enough to make some good thoughts.
How about “negative thinking”? My life sucks, yeah.
Have you seen a movie, “It’s a Wonderful Life”? Starred by James Stewart. It should be “It’s a Wonderful *&^$(#*&”. Eliminate “Life” instead.
White Ghost
December 20th, 2007 at 10:38 am
Paotie, “your English writing is sucks!” = deficit thinking
December 20th, 2007 at 10:39 am
*laughs*
Or, “It’s a Wonderful Deficit-Thinking Life.”
)
Paotie
December 20th, 2007 at 10:40 am
*laughs*
Keep going, ChrisH.
)
Paotie
December 20th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Amy,
Thank you for understanding where I was coming from.
You presented a great plan of action and I think it will do a world of wonders. I hope DBC get together and push this plan of action of your at full speed. We are wasting time fighting AGB, staging peaceful rally at their conference etc etc. Your approach and idea is exactly what I wanted to see and hope you and DBC can make it happen!!!
December 20th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Paotie,
i am starting to wonder what your issues are. You appear to me as an angry deaf man. hope i am wrong, but extremism and radicalism do not get you anywhere. you gain more enemies this way. it goes the same for ASL radicals/activists. but on a different thought, extremists may be necessary to maintain balance for the middle
ground to continue to exist.
well, you have a great mind, great sense of humor,but your anger and constant sarcasm are a bit tiring.
anna s
(deaf mom of a deaf child advocating all options available. hands waving to iammine and karen for their well balanced perspectives)
December 20th, 2007 at 11:02 am
think globally act locally.
that is what i am doing working with the deaf community/deaf agencies and the local DHH program. some of us deafies need to start to act locally to see real results.
let john and the others work on the national level. we neeeeeed more local work. so far i am the only Deaf person volunteering in DHH classes in our home district.
December 20th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Anna s.
Oh, Paotie is a professional and conversational blogger but funny. Honestly, he’s *MUCH* better than Ridor’s!
He *NEVER* insults anyone with the bad words. For instance, F***tard…..like that, he does not use these kind of words, like Ridor did that to anyone who he disagrees with.
Hope you understand his way better.
white Ghost
December 20th, 2007 at 11:19 am
*laughs*
Yup! I *NEVER* offend anyone.
The only people who are offended are those who allow themselves to be offended.
So, if people are “tired” of my comments, just skip ‘em.
What’s the problem? You’re an adult – act like one.
)
Paotie
December 20th, 2007 at 11:52 am
anna s Says:
>think globally act locally.
Is that the philosophy of NAD?
NAD supports SEE, CI, oralism,
I heard.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
As long as we have people like John Egbert, Brian Riley, Carl Shroeder and the list goes on, we will continue to see the deaf world pass by. They are stuck in a self serving mode which goes on the attack, rather than the “cure”.
First to bash someone’s way of thinking, mind you their own personal views, right, wrong or indifferent. Not seeing that it is them who is hurting the deaf community.
John, how about doing something POSITIVE for a change and that also goes for the rest of the negative people filling uo the blogosphere with hate and anger.
Then again, some people thrive on anger, hate and resent.
Merry Christmas
December 20th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
I wonder if we could save the Nazi word for the real ones
You know the ones from WW II (and yes there were Deaf Nazis – they even formed an SA group but were disbanned by the government as they didnt fit their view of an Aryan race
see http://www.rit.edu/deafww2 – click Deaf People / Deaf europeans
the header of this entry is AG Bell Nazis and Deaf Nazis
the discourse is eroding pretty quickly on the web these past few days
time to take the higher ground and stop calling names
comparing Oral extremists and ASL extremists to Nazis is simply wrong and insulting to the millions of Jewish, Deaf, Disabled, Gay Lesbian, Jehovah Witnesses, Romi, Communists, Catholics who were exterminated by the Nazis
re: outreaching to parents YES by all means
they need our support and love more than our judgment and rage
peace
pdurr
December 26th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Ah but see, Paotie does insult…
I loved the insult he did with the labia–it was hilarious. His insults are eloquently put.
Like Miranda from “The Devil wears Prada.” So efficient and classy–can’t help but wany more lololol
Ben