Ban the “Deficit Thinkers”?
Some have recently issued a demand to ban from Deafread what they are pleased to call “deficit thinkers”. This strikes me as being nothing less than an attempt to throttle open discussion of deaf issues because they think that there’s only one right way to be deaf: their way. No dissent allowed!
Now this is appalling. Aren’t we still in America, where freedom of expression is one of our most cherished rights? Just who are these people eager to impose a code of “correct thinking” on others? It’s particularly unreasonable when you reflect on the fact that the deaf come from such a diverse array of backgrounds, based on communicative styles, educational backgrounds, family interactions, and the degree of hearing loss. Why should everyone adhere to one way of thinking? All it leads to is alienation.
The blogosphere is a wonderful venue for open debate. Let’s keep it that way.
Dave
Reference:
Some have recently issued a demand to ban from Deafread what they are pleased to call “deficit thinkers”. This strikes me as being nothing less than an attempt to throttle open discussion of deaf issues because they think that there’s only one right way to be deaf: their way. No dissent allowed!
Now this is appalling. Aren’t we still in America, where freedom of expression is one of our most cherished rights? Just who are these people eager to impose a code of “correct thinking” on others? It’s particularly unreasonable when you reflect on the fact that the deaf come from such a diverse array of backgrounds, based on communicative styles, educational backgrounds, family interactions, and the degree of hearing loss. Why should everyone adhere to one way of thinking? All it leads to is alienation.
The blogosphere is a wonderful venue for open debate. Let’s keep it that way.
Dave
Reference:
December 18th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
There seems an eternal struggle to keep ‘Deaf’ sites for the ASL/BSL purists. So far we read abour ‘superemists’ (Deaf and Hearing !), and anyone that doesn’t jump to the support of sign and culture straight away is a ;deficient’ thinker, at present the deaf.read site is chocj full of genetic issues, they better hope, mainstream do not put ‘deaf supremists’ and ‘Genetics’ in the same sentence…. The UK seems totally bemused by the American deaf bloggers, and we still do not really recognise audism and have views on deafhood too. These diverse views are VITAL to the healthy well – being of deaf democracy, it accepts we all have a view, and a right to express it. There are fewer and fewer areas of free speech as it is…
December 18th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
The people wanting to ban “deficit thinkers” are the same people who spout off about “deafhood” – thereby prooving deafhood is a big lie.
December 18th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
MAYBE… the thought is that ASL could quickly gain its stronghold in America if NONE of us grew up oral, CIed, etc., so perhaps we are seen as a hindrance to the Deaf goals. Yeah, being labelled as deficit thinkers makes the rift wider. Really, everyone (deaf/hearing/etc.) is a deficit thinker, but asking that the deficit thinkers, even going far to name a few people like me, be silenced, ignored, etc… well, that is outright hostility, that there is something broken with us, and that Deafhood was the only remedy and if we did not see that way (cuz we feel OK or/and we see ourselves as persons first not Deaf first, whatever), then we should not be on DeafRead at all. I don’t know what goes in some people’s minds, but I do know that they DON’T know me and I DON’T know them, so we have no right to tell each other what to think and to say. That is the beautiful part of freedom of speech… being able to say, but we also have to RESPECT and to know when to back off when things get hot. I see that tolerance is a less understood fact on DeafRead.
What makes America unique is all kinds of cultures and the distinctive personalities of citizens.
December 18th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Freedom of Speech also gives you the right to walk away. Discussing Deficit Thinking doesn’t really help, and yelling for censorship doesn’t help.
We all have a choice – to view or NOT to view that v/blog. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head and saying, “You gotta read that blog! You gotta view that vlog!”
*sighs and just shakes her head*
December 18th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Some people enjoy being snotty and condensing, that’s all there is to it. Certain people are now saying, “Knock it off!” Not only for them, but ourselves with this revitalized term.
I will ask this, will certain bloggers attend DeafRead Blog Convention for discourse? Or prefer to hide behind keyboard still?
December 18th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
I spent my entire life fighting all kinds of censorship, including the Deaf Blogsphere.
I think that many of you probably misunderstand what Ella Lentz espouses “deficit thinking” on her vlog presentation.
Let’s give an example from Patoie’s blog. He seems reinforce the so-called myths of “deaf cults” within the Deaf Blogsphere.
I never had any chance of reading John Ebgert’s blog writing regarding his personal dislikes of seeing “deficit thinkings”. John is probably like Moses, who intentionally dropped the Golden Tablets to get the attention of sinners (nacrassatic and pessissmitic commentators) what we have been doing all along.
I agree with Ella Lentz and others that we really could do our best than being sacarastic, narrow-minded and assumptic toward many deaf issues or particular individuals.
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
RLMDEAF blog
December 18th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
As I mentioned in Ella’s website, Freedom of Speech is a gift to us and we value it so much. Sadly many people have abused Freedom of Speech. They are willing to do anything by harming and oppressing other people or groups. They claim that that is freedom of speech. I THINK NOT!
I believe in reasonable freedom of speech that will not harm or oppress other people or groups.
Deficit thinkers think they have right to degrade esteem of groups or individual. They have no respect for others and no respect for human rights.
Deafchip
December 18th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
I beg to differ with Karen Mayes and The Deaf Pundit. I like you both, your moderate perspectives in general. (:
We NEED to discuss deficit thinking and DeafRead is a much needed place to do so. DeafRead is a place where brainstorming, dissent, yelling, and agreeing happen.
Deficit Thinking discussions are hot in the mainstream (especially in education with ELL students)and I find it interesting to see how the term can be borrowed to apply to the way how some of us see each other and how some of the hearing see us.
Deficit thinking is real and is harmful especially when it comes to DHH students. The feeling of failure is replaced by hostility and/or refusal to work.
I still feel that the term has been grossly misinterpreted. Clarity is needeed.
Although I found John Egbert’s decision to say ban those DT off DeafRead excessive, I THANK him for igniting the fire for a lively and mind provoking discussion.
anna s
December 18th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Lol. These deafhood folks are so funny. I would just ignore them. If Deaf Read ever decides to cease these types of blogs and vlogs, I would certainly boycott Deaf Read. I am not exactly keen on reading what “Deaf Supermacists” have to say. Life is not fair – make the best out of it. More importantly, focus on improving the quality of life (equal access, education and etc.) for the future generations of deaf people.
December 18th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Well, there’s nothing we can do about the issue, “Deficit Thinking”. We have as our own society as theirs that cannot change everything.
Therefore, the deficit thinking issue will *NEVER* solve some problems we are facing.
Unless you accept people’s views and perceptives.
It is really sad to see other people’s own views that never share with others.
What would you say *WHEN* you live in communist area such as Cuba?
This is America.
White Ghost
December 18th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Dave,
May I challenge you to be a bit more accountable in your post? You said “some”…as far as I know, there was only one SUGGESTION to discuss the idea of revisiting the role of DeafRead…and that was John Egbert’s.
If I interpret him correctly, he was throwing in that idea because the Deaf activists who have been pouring energies and commitment (as opposed to the commonly believed concept that Deaf people are apathetic) have become frustrated with the relentless negative criticism that DeafRead is allowing just because the critics are Deaf.
I interpret it to mean that John was suggesting that we have a discussion about editorial control… And I was telling a friend recently that I was fortunate enough to witness the brewing and formation of the DeafRead idea during the summer of 2006 in San Diego.
If I recalled correctly, the idea was inspired by the NAD conference in Palm Springs, especially the Deafhood discussion there. Before that, some of us did want a kind of website where Deafhood discussion and critical examination about Deaf life and Oralism Colonialism’s effects on us could happen. We just didn’t have the technical saavy for that to happen.
Jared Evans was pushing for that kind of discourse and HAD the technical saavy that could make it happen. He was also inspired by all the blogs that existed during the May 2006 protest at Gallaudet and how the bloggers that time were processing the various issues related to the protest, Deafhood, Deaf rights, Deaf education, etc.
Indeed! there are plenty plenty plenty of audistic (and yes deficit thinking) books, movies, comments, blogs, etc etc etc out there… and FINALLLLY!!! we Deaf people could process our ideas the Deafhood way rather than allowing others to speak for us and interpreting us the wrong way.
It was real exciting!
I was thrilled beyond signs!
And finally quickly people started experimenting with Vlogs. It was there in San Diego when I was there when Joey Baer talked with Jared Evans about how to make his vlog more accessible and figured a way to post quicker and invite comments.
What an amazing time!
Then, the DeafRead explosion came during and after the Gallaudet protest during the fall of 2006….
Then, … in spirit of free thinking and freedom of speech, English blogs ( mostly–but not all, I know. Some are really great!! ) started revealing disturbing attitudes and views on our own people that I saw as “blaming the victim” (which was the Deaf people) rather than keeping focus on the real problem…our educational system, our identity struggle, our leadership, our vision (which practically wasn’t existing, and whatever vision we had was quickly diminishing)…
Yes, I believe we need to courageously re-visit the real purpose of DeafRead and make it a vehicle of the badly needed paradigm shift to place the Deaf people back in the world as a legitimate part and a part that shares in the role of making the world a better place to live.
I also think we as Deaf people need to research our own communities, histories, and languages with positive (or additive) thinking in order to build a strong vision for our future Deaf generations….and NOT fall victims to, yes, deficit thinking of believing that the “hearing” people out there have MORE to offer us than our own people. It’s simply NOT true.
One more… we need to start discussing what “dissent” means in our community. I think its a culturally loaded word.
“Dissent” in one context may be seen as “healthy debate” and in another context “oppressive behavior that needs to be stopped”…
May I suggest we MOVE ON…
Move on from practically killing a courageous fisherman’s idea and his attempt to improve our community, thinking, education and language….
Move on to forgiving him for his erronous choices of using “sicko” words to trying to understand his true intentions…and I believe that is to build a healthy creative productive world for his Deaf grandchildren and ALL his Deaf peers….
If we DO NOT ACT now to stop the alarming rise of intentional audism and intentional deficit thinking among ourselves AND our hearing professionals AND within the system that Deaf people are living in….. then…. John’s grandchildren and my grandson and many other children will not live in the obviously POSSIBLE healthy Deaf centered environments and have healthy views of non-Deaf people as well….
And I will personally take the blame on myself for not doing my bestest and fullest to maximize the PUSH right now!! I do expect all of you to feel the same.
Sorry this is long….
December 18th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Ella,
Then why not develop “DeafHoodRead,” exclusively for people who are not interested in reading the DT blogs/vlogs? DeafRead is too broad.
December 18th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
I didn’t develop DeafRead…I was there when it was in process of developing…
And sorry, Gallaudetian, to me Deaf and Deafhood are the same…and it IS FOR every Deaf person REGARDLESS of their educational upbringing, their hearing status, their language levels…. Deafhood deals with the WHAT…our attitudes…our thinking…. as opposed to deafness which deals with the static identity based solely on the audiogram and allowing that to determine our schooling, our language use, our access, etc etc.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Yeah, according to you… But for me, at this time – the foundation that the deaf culture is based on is unstable, due to the fact that every deaf person’s view on life and issues is too different from one other. Basically, there is no middle.
I think it is just impossible for the deaf hood folks, such as yourself, to win. The “D”eaf Community is growing smaller by the minute. Important *accept* diversity and *move on*. ASL will never find a permanent place in the educational system. Parents will not let that happen. Sorry.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
I am really surprised that people misunderstand the meaning of the concept of free speech.
“Free speech” does not mean that someone has a right to demand that other people provide assistance to spread their views. Does someone have the right to barge into a newspaper office and demand that his or her letter to the editor be printed in the newspaper? No. That’s the editor’s choice and the letter-writer has no legal right to have his letter accepted for publication. The letter-writer can submit the letter to other newspapers or even start his or her own newspaper.
Ella is right. This is an issue of editorial choices being made.
One unfortunate tendency of the Internet, including blogs and meta-blogs, is that the quality of the debate often degenerates due to people using shocking language and disingenuous tactics to get people’s attention. This is now causing Deaf Read to degenerate also.
John’s message was a wake-up call to generate debate. There is nothing wrong with him asking the owners of Deaf Read to reconsider their editorial policies.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Riley, you’re full of it, you know that, don’t you? No amount of lying by yourself and others will undo what was done. Even Egbert isn’t man enough to owe up to his flub. Go lay down somewhere.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
DT,
You just proved what I said. Your post is inflammatory and offers no insight.
John did not commit a flub. Deaf Read is not a public utility and this has absolutely *nothing* to do with the issue of free speech.
The only free speech involved is the free speech of Tayler (and whoever else owns Deaf Read) being able to decide how they want to operate and what policies they wish to follow.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Like Gally-Net, Brian? :p
December 18th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Jeannette,
It was actually Slemo who expelled me from GallyNet-L (twice). That was his choice to make and he had the right to do so. He expelled other people, too, including Zoltan.
He continues to operate GallyNet-L. No one has violated his free speech rights.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Riley,
Your kidding right, your the same guy that has barged into families property and homes to harrass them during the protest. All the while using an alias. Hyprocritical coward is what comes to mind right now.
Mishka Zena,
You are in the same category as Riley. You are the queen of censorship. As well as part of the radical deaf culture movement. Hypocritical as well
December 18th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
I recall a huge argument several months ago about freedom of speech because Slemo was fired from Gallaudet, and people including you, accused Gallaudet of censorship. :p
And by the way, no – DeafRead is not like a newspaper. DeafRead is more like a newsstand. You pick and choose which newspaper (v/blog) from the stand to read.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Gallaudetian,
so let me take your advice to heart…
I am already infused with diversity of which I am most grateful…
And Deafhood is about diversity…actually it’s uniting us all by our being Deaf…and its challenging us ALL to be the BEST DEAF HUMAN BEINGS POSSIBLE, whatever “best” means…and if not in this lifetime, build the best foundation for the next.
If I take your advice to heart…
I stop doing Deafhood workshops,
I stop writing the Signing Naturally curriculum,
I stop sales of The Treasure,
I stop doing my presentations,
I quit the Board of Directors for California Association of the Deaf,
I quit the Deaf Bilingual Coalition,
I refuse to participate in the Allies Conference facilitating interpreters’ and Deaf people’s dialogue about how to better work together sharing a vision,
I refuse to donate money to Deaf organizations/agencies (for example Gallaudet, NAD),
I stop my vlogs,
I refuse to comment on others’,
I just stay home, read, watch TV, walk, play with my pets, ignore my neighbors, ignore my children, especially my Deaf grandson, ignore the arrogant ads and articles in my hometown about CIs, or even try to say nice things about their audistic remarks, ignore my partner because she’s Deaf, ignore my parents because they are Deaf and are the fault of my being a bad-a** DOD, and the fault of my acquiring ASL as my first language the language many of you have given up hope,
I stop going to Deaf events, even the ASL gathering with hearing ASL students.
hmm…is that what you are doing? or is that what you want for me and others? Just wondering…
December 18th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
John Egbert meant well. I was thinking about this for a long time. I am not against anyone to have different opinions and ideas because I have a mind of my own. However, I do not like to see some bloggers on Deafread list where they do not recognize ASL as language, Deaf culture and fight for our rights and for Deaf children to use ASL for communication and education. Their perspectives, outlooks, and beliefs do not match or fit with majority of Deaf community. I believe that they should not be on Deafread list because if parents look for some answers or some Deaf people who were oppressed by other groups may exerperience confusion from reading different bloggers, getting mixed facts and misinformation. I am appalled that Tayler Mayer does not care for the future of Deaf children and he does not care if parents get wrong information or guidance to offer right path for their deaf children. It does not bother him. It bothers John, me and many others. I feel those who do not have common concerns for our community should not be on Deafread list but elsewhere. Of course, I agree with Tayler about Freedom of Speech which I support that very much but not to where it causes division in our community or threatened for the future of Deaf children. Too bad we have limited options to protect Deaf children and their future and our community too. Please do not be greedy here. Think about the future of Deaf children. Deaf Children Deaf Children Deaf Children!!! One more will AGB accept our comments? No they would not. Oh why? why? because we do not have same belief It makes sense to me so why not Deafread do the same thing too. We are always weak!!! Stand up what is right for us. No more meek and no more giving in.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Penny, maybe it’s my eyes or something but I don’t know of a single blogger who says that ASL isn’t a language onto itself.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Ella, hell yea! That!
December 18th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Ella, why do you speak for John? Can’t he speak for himself? Disturbing attitudes and views on “your” people? These are my people too. What you see as disturbing can be something else to others. Perhaps you read into things that are not there? That kind of thinking (Negative about English blogs) only encourages deaf people not to be proficient in English in order to be part of a certain group of deaf people. That, to me is division. We all want to be self sufficient and not rely on others and English helps in that regard, the more you know, the more independent you are in society. It’s a win win situation to be proficient in English. It’s also win win to be proficient in ASL as well.
What continues to amaze me is after your and DE’s vlog about deficit thinkers, thinking or whatever…many deaf are still misinterpreting that term. Many are still wrong about what that term means.
John needs to speak for himself. Once he does, then he’ll gain more respect especially if he apologizes. Men are stubborn, I know.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
C…
Point taken; in fact, it makes me wonder about the bi-bi approach in education but that’s for another time.
Oh, and, yes, John needs to own up to his misdeed if he is to be taken seriously from now on. I don’t want to seem like an ogre, rubbing it in and demanding an apology from John….I don’t but since I don’t know him except through this box, I feel he needs to clear the air and move on…..time’s a-wasting, John.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
DT- I must admit that I did not keep record or list what bloggers have said about our community and our causes to fight for Deaf children and rights. I think someone needs to make a note of it each time so we can present our arguement better next time. I was too involved with school so I did not have chance to keep record but I have seen a lot where some do not fit for Deafread list. I do not want John to apologize because what he said was very true. Maybe now it is eye awakening for all of us so we can watch more carefully what other bloggers say about our language, culture and for the future of Deaf children. You can help us with that too if you wish.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
of course mr egbert meant well.
but why waste time and energy shooting anyone down?
let us move on and do something positive or constructive..
when the naysayers dont get the attention they want, they will fade away or go elsewhere..
pfffft
December 18th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Penny, I feel what you said about Tayler was reckless. He has already vlogged about his stance. It has been explained over and over again by him. Put it this way, we are blogs at a space docking station, ok. He merely provides an avenue for our discussion and only WE are responsible for our actions – whatever shite we come up with. I will not accept a sanitized DeafRead, no way Jose! BTW, I do not care what hearing people think of us and that paranoia is just silly. I will trust the reader’s judgment. A man is just asking us to behave for the common good. Just like this grandfather who’s complaining that them darn kids are noisy!
December 18th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
C–
Point taken. I thought that Ella’s recent vlog was terrible, but, that’s my honest opinion.
DP –
Your response on C’s (18th, 6:50PM) comment?
White Ghost
December 18th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Mike- You don’t care if bloggers say it is okay for Deaf children to have cochlear implants and they are required to see audiologists frequently for remapping while they HAVE NO WAY TO COMMUNICATE WITH THEM? You don’t care if bloggers support Parents and Drs to have CI while all of them are aware that children get serious side effects? You don’t care if bloggers say it is up to parents to decide if Deaf children can ASL or not for education and learning? You don’t care if bloggers say it is okay for Deaf leaders with CI to represent our community while there is no F……….LAW to protect for Deaf children from getting CI? You are wrong. Deaf read is reckless about this because they don’t give a damn about Deaf children. I am always concern when readers found information that give out false myths and hopes. You don’t care? Shame on you as being a Deaf citizen. Shame on you. Deafread needs to take full responsibility to make sure all information are true and real unlike AGB for giving out myths and false hopes for Deaf children and our community for so many years. Let us not copy their teaching and behavior.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
White Ghost, I agree with DT and C.
Penny, we have the RIGHT to say whatever we want, unless it is libel or slander. If someone insults you, the Freedom of Speech gives you the right to ignore him/her, or to respond right back.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
What continues to amaze me is that some people still do not get what Ella and De had tried to say. All they do is stuck with their own inner-issues and then they try to generalize their own issues on us. My suggestion for them is to be objective and examine in 360-degree view.
We as ASL allies including Ella and DE, all support Deaf children to be proficient in English and ASL. Once we get Bilingual education and teachers with great attitude, more than many Deaf children will success in English writing/Reading and ASL.
I must stress that being intelligent has nothing to do with English writing. Anyone can write English. It is about how many tools do we have in order to build “English writing”.
Some Deaf people got a very few tools in their bags. Some other Deaf people got many tools in their bag or cart. That’s why some Deaf people have access to English writing.
People like us who got a very few tools in our tiny bags because of educators with deficit thinking who didn’t believe in our future and us.
The problem is STILL out there. The education system for the Deaf children is screwed up. it does not challenge many brilliant Deaf children. Many teachers spend so much time to correct speech and listening and to forget the main point of teaching. Many teachers have a low expectation of Deaf children. The language was not given in early age that hurt Deaf children’s education.
We need to face these deficit creators of education system and tell them to stop. We are brilliant Deaf people. Allow us to create the best top quality education for the Deaf children.
In my perspective, the main point of this argument is some bloggers using this destructive power through written language. They would mock at Deaf/ASL community and make degraded comments. For example, Some Deaf people who are not proficient in ASL but are proficient in English picks on Deaf people who are proficient in ASL and are also proficient in English.
Doing the reading takes some time to do critical thinking and to pay attention carefully what their true intention behind of writing.
For some people would take advantage of the history of how the society view on any people from minority group who don’t speak or write in English is, of course, very negative.
Some Deaf people take advantage to use this tool for bullying purpose. Some Deaf people who are not proficient in English have low self esteem with their writing and sometimes it can affect them so bad that they need help from counseling. They are being brainwashed that they learn that they are not good enough due their not skill in writing. They learn to worship to these crazy like mad science, which I call “Mad” English Writers.
I have many Deaf friends who write beautifully and skillfully. They respect us and they do not use their English writing against us or use this destructive power to intimidate us. There are difference between Good English Writers and Evil MAD English Writers. May force with you. Wink…
Don’t let these “MAD” English Writers immobilize us from being successful. We know what right for us individually and collectively.
We will continue fighting for our next Generation of Deaf children’s right of using American Sign Language. They will be at rest and knowing they will be proficient in ASL and English.
Aidan
December 18th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
Penny, everyone has their own opinions on certain issues and we don’t have to agree with all of it. We can’t force issues on people but we can talk about it. The rest is up to each of us how we decide which views we agree with. But, just because one opposes certain issues does not mean it should be banned! That is why we have discussions.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Penny, settle down darling, I hear you and I grew up with a hearing aid so I know the process, ok. I’m here with you all, talking about stuff that I’d never dreamed of talking about and with. All what you said requires an actual political process, bottom line. We’re getting there, apparently. What’s happening from DeafRead is either a revolution or a renaissance. Way I see it. Have patience.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
in these days, “deficit thinkers” has become a extremely hot topic among our deafs. “i saw many blog about deficit thinkers. in my opinion, everyone has rights to express his/her minds,feeling,and view. we need freedom of speech, and it also gives you the right to walk away if you can not accept others’ view”,a handsome deaf yong man said. i saw this comment from a popular blog on deafromance.com .
December 18th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Dave,
I take note of some people who are angry with John Egbert for denouncing AGB for ethnic cleansing of Deaf Culture, including sign language. He has both oral skills and sign language skills. Their anger with him is beyond my comprehension in that John’s anger is legitimately reasonable.
The degree of John’s anger is the same as that of Jewish people’s Anti-Defamation League and the Black people’s NAACP when angry with Mel Gibson and Don Imus respectively. What did the latter do? Jewish people ostracised Mel Gibson and boycotted all of his films some of which he produced. Due to the pressure of the NAACP, Don Imus was duly fired.
Are deaf people sleeping and waiting for the Horse of Troy?
December 18th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Ella, it appears to me that John Egbert is going further than merely suggesting a change in the policy of DeafRead–he’s calling for removal of “defecit thinkers” therefrom (and let me just take a moment to note the irony of a novelist making this demand. What next–ban Huck Finn from school libraries for using the term “deef and dumb”?). You have essentially the same aim but you’re going about it a little more subtly.
DeafRead certainly isn’t the NAACP, as John would have it. It’s not an organization with an agenda, it’s a service for deaf bloggers and vloggers. It provides an venue for debate. To exclude participants simply because their position is controversial or isn’t popular may not technically be censorship, but it’s tantamount to censorship. This would go well beyond banning offensive posters, as bloggers have every right to do.
More to the point, the way to deal with your opponents in a debate is to present arguments that are persuasive. The last thing you should do is go to the moderator and demand their removal.
You aren’t afraid the “deficit thinkers” have better arguments, are you? Then let them remain–and debate them.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Jean….
Right now, people are upset with John because he proposed censorship. This has nothing to do with his attacks on AGB. Stop trying to make him a matryr for something he is not.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
I thought Deafread is supposed to be safe for all of us. I guess not … eh. No need to bash out to others. We have our own opinion no matter what. Cheers!
December 19th, 2007 at 12:08 am
#39,
If you hold a public debate in an auditorium, it doesn’t make sense to allow any nut who walks in the door to come in and disrupt the debate. There has to be minimum standards of conduct.
Likewise, we wouldn’t allow some psychologically disturbed person to hog the floor and speak nonsense.
I never read anyone saying that honorable opponents should be excluded from Deaf Read. That’s a straw man.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:19 am
Some of you who continue to be narrow-mind and focus on small pictures amaze me! Insisting John E. to apologize is plainly silly! It’s not SO important! What is more important is that this “deficit thinking” issue came out and got us into discussion!
What’s so funny to me is that those same people didn’t object to certain bloggers who intentionally attempt to damage Deaf, Deaf Culture, ASL, etc with lies and assumptions. They didn’t demand them apologize. Yet, they are (still) demanding John with well-intention at his heart to apologize! MOVE ON!
Therefore, I will say something to John…
John, although I disagree with you about banning any blogs and vlogs, I thank you for initiating the spark! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
December 19th, 2007 at 4:42 am
Penny’s view seems to highlight a number of things, primarily there is a sector of the ‘Deaf’ community that doesn’t want to hear any other deaf person’s views at ALL, and worse, feels deaf.read should NOT allow future deaf (Children), access to other people’s views on deaf issues, only ‘pro’ views on deaf culture/sign and nothing else, which should be accompanied by the view any sort of CI/Hearing aid/oral stance is to be condemned outright as some herecy against deaf people, the biggest issue is of course, this sector wants to do away with free discourse amongst deaf and HI people.
Deaf/Cultural stand alone sites are negative in approach,all people will see, is division, and how will yu get hearing people to support it, if they attack them every time they open their mouth ? The politics of Isolationism, we don’t want it. We are a diverse community, this must be reflected, and respected, to state anything else is quite wrong.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Fascinating discussion post here…You know as the saying goes: “It is not a matter of WHAT you say, it is a matter of HOW you say it.” John Egbert means it well but he may not have selected the right way of saying it. For myself, I just try to to stick that rule but sometimes it gets broken due to having emotions taking over. After all, we are humans so we just forgive and move on.
Blogosphere may be considered a land of freedom of speech where virtually everyone can leave their opinions as they see it fit. However, the freedom can become restricted when it comes to HARM. The comments have inflicted wounds toward each other in our mere Deaf community that becomes a sensitive issue. Nobody said anything until John Egbert just had the gall to say halt to those who are bashing and giving a bad rap to the Deaf culture. He is just blowing the whistle to make us to stop and think what kind of hurtful comments are degrading the image of our precious Deaf community especially in a public place where anyone can read and make a mockery out of it. I am not proud of what had happened and it made me feel embarrased. We just have a responsibility to ensure that opinions are to be expressed with a respectful manner but again who gets to enforce it? It is a big difference between publishing a blog that expresses his/her views that justifies an opinion in a respectful manner than publishing a blog that is considered a defamatory which is a “false and unprivileged statement of fact that is harmful to someone’s reputation (or community for that matter), and published “with fault,” meaning as a result of negligence or malice.” (http://w2.eff.org/bloggers/lg/faq-defamation.php)
December 19th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Here’s a fact whether you all like it or not: Hearing parents have a God-given right to make certain decisions regarding their children, even if they are deaf. I have seen a number of deaf blogs claiming this is not so. Hearing parents should HAVE to send their children to deaf schools, even if it meant sending them out of state. Hearing parents should HAVE to choose ASL over CI. I saw one deaf blogger come dangerously close to saying that hearing parents should just have their deaf children taken away, so that those children could be raised by deaf.
If I had a deaf child and was doing research to try and help me in my decision of what to do, I would be very turned off by the blogs on Deaf Read. What you all need to do, instead of making yourselves look like a bunch of Deaf Nazis, is foster respectful and caring outreach to these people. Show them why it would be better to chose bi bi education, instead of oral only. Let them see happy well-adjusted Deaf adults with careers, homes, and families. Even if the parent choses CI, who says that child can’t also learn ASL and have both?
Ninety percent of deaf children have hearing parents. The future of the Deaf community depends on the choices these hearing parents make, and I see you all doing rather a lot to shoot yourselves in your collective foot.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:31 am
brenster, this is extremely relevant to the big picture. It shows the character and integrity of John Egbert, Ella Lentz and DE.
Those three want ANY opposing opinion off DeafRead, and they want to impose their will on us.
That is the big picture.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Ella and other Deaf politicans, it would be very wise to stop wearing blinders when the Crab Theory walks around among the deaf people.
ella, no you do not have to stop anything as what you posted on number 22 but your gang must stop playing the game against any deaf person just to feel superior that can be very damaging to the deaf community.
I think your gang and you should start a class on stopping the dangerous Crab Theory.
Some bloggers denied their practicing the Crab Theory which is not true. They had been fertilizing it “unseeingly” that it grows so powerful that it can hardly be damaged.
Ella, your pal, Patti Dunn, leave Jane Fernandes alone if she happened to have her foot on Gallaudet campus. No Deaf people owns that university or its name be depromoted to community college. Beware!
December 19th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Jean,
John’s anger may be valid but his appeal/demand for removal of “deficit thinkers” from Deaf Read is not the solution. The examples you cite regarding Imus and Gibson point to an alternative that might be more logical.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Deep Ears,
Deaf Read isn’t an auditorium. The links are there for you to choose: click them or ignore them. Someone compared Deaf Read to a newstand, and that’s the more valid analogy.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
#49,
The analogy holds. Deaf Read is a type of “meeting place” on the Internet. The benefit of the meeting place would be lost if there is no general purpose to the meeting and no minimum standards. The general purpose should be to provide a forum for meaningful exchange. Honorable opponents can make meaningful contributions, too.
#46,
You lose your credibility when you make such accusations.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
#50,
Deaf Read is not a physical location, no one can drown out or shout down anyone else.
“Honorable opponents can make meaningful contributions, too.”
Obviously, and the trolls and flamers can simply be ignored. Attention is what they feed on; deny them that, and they wither.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Deep Ears
“You lose your credibility when you make such accusations.”
I have to agree with you because she is sometime lie.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
I no longer am a fan of A Deaf Pundit as she is sometime liar.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
A Deaf Pundit- We already moved beyond past the “remove the blogs/vlogs” debate. Only a small group of you still are on this, yes still.
The bigger picture is to analyze the “deficit thinking” and how to not let it affect or hold us back from our progress for betterments. The small group of you STILL focuses on one of gaps/weaknesses: ONE PERSON – John. Now, add two more people: Ella and DE. Just because they discussed the meaning of “deficit thinking,” it’s quickly assumed that, “oh they must be all behind that.” Oh, maybe Carl, too? Oh, also Joey. What about Aidan? Yes, don’t forget me! Continuing to blame against each other only will give many BIG smiles among those colonialists who put us into the crab bucket in the first place.
I think John just made a poor word choice. It happened. Removing blogs and vlogs from DeafRead simply WILL NOT happen. What’s the point of getting down to the bottom of it? It will not help anyway.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
#51,
Deaf Read can get overly cluttered and its usefulness destroyed. If it remains merely an “aggregator”, then that is what is going to happen, and Deaf Read will lose its popularity.
At that point, someone else will create something better than Deaf Read and people will flock to the new one.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Only because DeafRead said no. That is the ONLY reason it’s not happening. But will the pressure continue in private? I suspect so and would be very surprised if it DIDN’T happen. What if Tayler finally caves in to the pressure and lets it happen?
And I might ask the same thing about getting to the bottom of deficit thinking. We all know there are bigoted arses out there. Do we really need pseudo-therapists like DE and Ella telling us that?
You have three choices on dealing with those arses: Ignore them by not clicking on their blog; Read their blog and respond in their comment section; Read their blog and respond with your own v/blog.
If you want to examine where your beliefs came from, that’s fine. And I think that’s a great thing to do, but I honestly think that should be guided by professionals who have degrees in Psychology.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
#56
Don’t attribute your own insecurities about yourself to others. DE and Ella are very credible activists who know what they are talking about.
The fact that you equate activism and consciousness raising in the deaf community with practicing or theorizing about psychology is revealing. It shows that you think it’s all about deaf people seeking resolution for psychological problems. But that’s not what it is.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
I think Deafread is already cluttered as it is with the postings by Carl Schroeder. He tries to posit himself as a true philosopher but in actually, when you take apart what he says, you’ll see that he makes no sense at all.
I assume that the mary jane over there in Oregon (and Hawaii) are very good!
December 19th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
This comment is for Mike Schmidt. I want to apologize to him in public because I yelled at him in public on this blog which was and is not acceptable. I realized last night that I got myself emotional when I was thinking about millions of Deaf children who are suffering today. His comment was polite but apparently I was “deficit thinker” and took it personally and attacked him. I do not accept anyone yelling at me and I need to do the same thing by not yelling at anyone too. I apologize and thank you, Mike.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
A Deaf Pundit- I do not believe that the “deficit thinking” is limited only to psychological issue, but can be studied in different areas, such as anthropology, social studies, American/Women/African-American/Deaf/etc studies, sociological, etc etc.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
brenster,
There are some people still disturbed over John E.’s censorship article. Ella and DE are sugarcoating John’s blunder by diverting attention away from John’s self-centered anger at one blogger to a discussion of “deficit thinking”.
Won’t wonders never cease. For Ella and DE to seize the moment of John’s blunder and the ensuing outrage over censorship as an opportunity to further their cause is nothing short of propaganda at another person’s expense.
Both John Egbert’s self-centered anger and Deafhood proponents’ opportunistic aims do not reflect well on the D/deaf community in this blogosphere, where thousands, including hearing parents of deaf children, read for information on deafness.
There have been so many interpretations of “deficit think-ers” and “deficit think-ing” on the this deaf blogosphere it’s enough to make one scream. This all started because of one person’s angry personal obsession with another blogger, multiplied by Deafhood’s advocates’ collective anger at “oppression”.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Ann_C,
I can understand that “there are some people still disturbed over John E.’s censorship article,” and that is THEIR issue!
I will use this same sentence and comment but in a reversed situation: “There are some people still disturbed over” constantly blatant lies about ASL, Deaf culture, Deafhood, Deaf, etc with an intention to mislead readers into believing that those are true, and to cause harms/damages toward our cause. Those bloggers tend to use assumptions and myths to create such misleading interpretations about “Deaf people.” Those bloggers do not look at bigger pictures, but instead, they always focus on “gaps and weakenesses” and used them to attack on “Deaf people.” They said they do not care about Deaf culture, etc etc. If it is true, then why are they always watching us, writing about us, and attacking us?
Now that we are being empowered by the term: “deficit thinking” which gives us a new perspective toward those “deficit thinking” behaviors, those bloggers and their anti-ASL-Deaf proponents are using “censorship” as a strategy to “diverting attention away from” the true fundamental issue: DEFICIT THINKING.
I do not know what you think the Deafhood proponents’ opportunistic aims are all about, but I am glad to go into discussion about “deficit thinking” and it’s more worthy to discuss about than to discuss about something that will never happen anyway, and to discuss about unproven speculations about “opportuntic aims.”
I did notice that some of those bloggers also are exploiting this opportunity for various aims, including financial gains. Very typical.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
Brenster ..
What lies are you talking about?
Please inform us, since apparently, the initial issue was about censorship, then it was about deficit thinking, and then it was about John not being able to read very well, and now it’s once against about “lies.”
Except you added at the end about some “bloggers are exploiting this opportunity for various aims, including financial gains.”
Looks like we’re back to censorship, once again.
And while at, why don’t you tell who you’re talking about, since you apparently know everybody’s financial motivations behind their blogs.
Pretty please with honey on the side?
Paotie
December 19th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Whew, brenster, reverse psychology? Really, you can do better than that, like how about thinking for yourself and stop hiding behind “we” for a change?
Anybody with a good pair of eyes can read what happened on the blogosphere. I got sharp eyes, too, ya know, no amount of sugar-coating is going to explain what I read with my own eyes.
I still believe John Egbert needs to admit to his lack of control over his anger and make an apology to DeafRead readers, not so much to the blogger at whom he was so angry that he called for censorship but to those who’d trusted his integrity and leadership. His cred is not so good right now, and any amount of others covering for him doesn’t
do an ounce of good for the D/deaf community.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
In case you guys didn’t notice, you did not win the argument. You guys are totally distoring the meaning of free speech. Free speech is not an entitlement. You can not FORCE other people to work to enable you to present your views. You have no right to do so. No one is obligated to assist anyone else in the presentation of their views.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Just to make the issue crystal clear. Every one is entitled to OFFER his/her ideas to other people, but no one is entitled to FORCE someone to help you offer the ideas, and no one is entitled to force people to pay attention to you.
If people do not want to help you offer your ideas to the public, then you have to do it on your own, and there is nothing wrong with that.
December 20th, 2007 at 2:42 am
There you go, DE, “you guys” again. “Us vs. them” thinking.
And what argument? It was a firestorm and I didn’t start it, DE.
And my goodness, aren’t you one for “clarification” of more rules.
December 20th, 2007 at 11:33 am
#66 and #67,
Who’s forcing Deaf Read to present material you happen to consider objectionable?
Why don’t you deal with the “deficit thinkers” directly, rather than attempt to have Deaf Read remove or disallow them?
December 20th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
#69,
Some of the participants in this debate believe that they have a “free speech right” to participate in Deaf Read. No they don’t.
If they had that right, that means they could take Tayler to court and sue him to force them to allow to participate. They don’t have that right.
It’s up to Tayler to decide whether he wants to operate Deaf Read like a newsstand, or an aggregator, or like a meeting in an assembly hall, or whatever. It’s HIS RIGHT to decide.
#68, you’re the one doing the us vs. them thinking. I was simply referring to the couple of people who were commenting here and pretending like they won they debate. They didn’t.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
I meant: force him to allow them to participate
December 20th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
im going this thread very late in the game and honestly could not follow each post
seems alot of old baggage from various places is getting dumped into this picture
when my family has a disagreement and conflict and emotions get really heated – we agree to take a couple of steps backward – calm down and breath and then ask if we can start over
wondering if it is time to just start over and anew
it is clear that DeafRead is precious and important to all of us
it is clear that DeafRead is getting used and abused (and/or allowing itself to do so)
wondering if we try to start anew and ask ourselves – is my not blog / vlog / or comment designed to mock, ridicule, or abuse a group of people – if so, i would ask u to find another place for such ill play
if any of our next blog / vlog / or comment is designed to assert a stand, opinion, share an experience or point of view – even if contrary to my own – i would welcome it if it can be done respectfully and fairly
right now there is ALOT of hitting below the belts
and a ton of urban legends seem to be emerging
i have never seen any blog / vlog that advocated for an ASL ONLY education for deaf kids
i have never seen any blog / vlog that advocated for the exclusion of Deaf people who were oral or use CI from the Deaf community or DeafRead
i have seen comments by bloggers / vloggers that are inflamatory, mocking and mean
i have seen some people sign CI in a way that is disrespectful and labels the person instead of the device or the CI industry or the specialists
i have seen some people make derogatory and offensive remarks about Deaf culture and ASL
i think what some folks are calling for from DeafRead is “to gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance” (G. Washington)
what we now seem to have emerging on DeafRead is an UNcivil war so i will close with a quote from Abraham Lincoln closing his first inaugural address and the onset of the Civil war
“I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.”
let us remember the better angels of our nature and type / sign carefully
peace
patti durr