Back From AGB Demonstration
It was really fantastic meeting some of the DBC organizers in person, John Egbert, Barb Digi and her kids, DE, and Aidan. Much to my pleasure, Jared Evans, one of the DeafRead editors, was there, too. I bumped to some former students and other Deaf people I know, which is always great.
The atmosphere was very peaceful and serene outside. The demonstrators were relaxed, chatting.
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However, when I went inside the hotel, John was talking to the security manager, surrounded by Barb, her daughter, several demonstrators, the NAD lawyer, security guards, and police officers. I was taken aback by the hostility expressed by the security manager. Even though the security manager stressed how respectful he and others were, his body language indicated differently. The hostility was so intense that I cannot help wondering exactly what they were told by the AGB people. For sure, the Deaf demonstrators were courteous and friendly. John was very clear and explicit when he expressed that the hotel personnel had an attitude toward the Deaf demonstrators. Even though the security manager denied this, his disrespect was very obvious to me.
It was great meeting Rosalind Crawford, the NAD Law Director. We were very appreciative that she showed up promptly today to represent Barb DiGi, Brianna and DBC and make sure their legal rights weren’t interfered with again.
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The spirit among the protesters was strong and high. The protest ended with a brief meeting, picture taking, and more videotaping. Most are planning to regroup at Gallaudet several hours later.
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Why did AGB feel so threatened by the flyer which illustrates the benefits of ASL to hearing babies but that deaf babies aren’t given the same opportunities? What makes ASL so horrible that AGB cannot even handle a flyer, which the police said is harmless? Â Something isn’t kosher here.
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I’ll have more to say regarding this theme later.. This is the crux of the issue.. lack of respect for deaf people because they are not hearing enough. AGB set up the hostile tone for the hotel security and the resulting attack of the hotel manager on Deaf demonstrators. If the peaceful demonstrators were hearing and white professionals, she wouldn’t have acted in an outrageous and downright disgraceful manner. As a veteran of many white and hearing peaceful protests, I’ve never seen this attitude exhibited toward Deaf people last Fall and this weekend.
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From my hubby who came too: Everyone there was friendly and obviously very focused on their mission, which is full access to communication for babies, deaf and hearing alike.
It was really fantastic meeting some of the DBC organizers in person, John Egbert, Barb Digi and her kids, DE, and Aidan. Much to my pleasure, Jared Evans, one of the DeafRead editors, was there, too. I bumped to some former students and other Deaf people I know, which is always great.
The atmosphere was very peaceful and serene outside. The demonstrators were relaxed, chatting.
Â
However, when I went inside the hotel, John was talking to the security manager, surrounded by Barb, her daughter, several demonstrators, the NAD lawyer, security guards, and police officers. I was taken aback by the hostility expressed by the security manager. Even though the security manager stressed how respectful he and others were, his body language indicated differently. The hostility was so intense that I cannot help wondering exactly what they were told by the AGB people. For sure, the Deaf demonstrators were courteous and friendly. John was very clear and explicit when he expressed that the hotel personnel had an attitude toward the Deaf demonstrators. Even though the security manager denied this, his disrespect was very obvious to me.
It was great meeting Rosalind Crawford, the NAD Law Director. We were very appreciative that she showed up promptly today to represent Barb DiGi, Brianna and DBC and make sure their legal rights weren’t interfered with again.
Â
The spirit among the protesters was strong and high. The protest ended with a brief meeting, picture taking, and more videotaping. Most are planning to regroup at Gallaudet several hours later.
Â
Why did AGB feel so threatened by the flyer which illustrates the benefits of ASL to hearing babies but that deaf babies aren’t given the same opportunities? What makes ASL so horrible that AGB cannot even handle a flyer, which the police said is harmless? Â Something isn’t kosher here.
Â
I’ll have more to say regarding this theme later.. This is the crux of the issue.. lack of respect for deaf people because they are not hearing enough. AGB set up the hostile tone for the hotel security and the resulting attack of the hotel manager on Deaf demonstrators. If the peaceful demonstrators were hearing and white professionals, she wouldn’t have acted in an outrageous and downright disgraceful manner. As a veteran of many white and hearing peaceful protests, I’ve never seen this attitude exhibited toward Deaf people last Fall and this weekend.
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From my hubby who came too: Everyone there was friendly and obviously very focused on their mission, which is full access to communication for babies, deaf and hearing alike.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
“Lack of respect for deaf people because they are not hearing enough” – Touche!
That is the gist —
We, Deaf people and babies needs hands to communicate, not placed on us with the means of control.
I’m so glad you are there!
Amy Cohen Efron
July 28th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
I figured as much that it was AGB behind the hostility of the management. They feel threatened by the DBC’s presesence that they pressured the management to do something about it. That they feel threatened is good…they know ASL is a threat to their ideology and agenda. Their actions are loud and clear.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Wouldn’t it be nice if both sides could come to an agreement? I am sick and tired of the ignorant people. Parents and children need to communicate with one another; the quicker the better it will be for both!!
It has already been prooven that children understand sign language (or hand signals) before they are able to vocalize their needs. Only a small percentage of the English language is able to be understood via lip reading alone!!
AGB wake up and smell the coffee!!!
Human
July 28th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
While looking at “contact AGBell” pages at their websites, there are no TTY/VP numbers listed. Obviously the organization caters very much to the hearing.
I wonder how do some of the adult members of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Section (DHHS) of AGBell view AGBell?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I want to say I was wrong…AGBell does list a TTY number on SOME of their “contact AGB” webpages.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Being a manager, Jenny. B. were trained how to use the conduct accurately and professionally.
Unfortnuately, the incident she caused yesterday was very inexcusable, unacceptable and uncalled for.
She knows better than that.
The Marriott management should have investigated Jenny’s poor conduct toward the protesters, especially, Barb Digi’s daughter, Brianna.
White Ghost
July 28th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Parents making ultimate decisions happen to be not the best decision for deaf and hoh people, this needs to be clearly communicated and..legislated, just like physical to psychological abuse is not the parents’ right. This definitely will require a careful comprehensive plan with clear guideline, better testing tools, and UNBIASED evaluators.
Bill of Deaf Child’s right is weak.
Info on Bill of Deaf Child’s Right
July 28th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Barb – Brianna –
The Mother and the Daughter of the Year!
I am glad that someone videotaped the sign language expressed by an 8-eight-old Brianna. Hearing parents who are affiliated with the AGB will notice that Brianna has a fabulous vocabulary while most oralists aged 8 have few words in their vocabualry!
This videotape has already become historic ever recorded!
Barb and Brianna are The Mother and The Daughter of the Year!
July 28th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
From the looks of it all, based on the reports by several v/bloggers, it was obvious that AGB was threatened by DBC. I recognize the attitude of these hotel personnel as something I’ve seen and personally experienced so many times in my life. It happens even to HOH people like myself who speaks well, only, It usually happens when I dont’ speak. I see the difference all the time.
Thanks for reporting at your end, you’re one of the bloggers known (to me) as being excellent for accurate reporting.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Hi there,
Yeah it was surprising that the hotel management didn’t have their act together, they acted so crappy and intolerant in front of the protestors.
I hope the convention visitors went home feeling impacted about the protest.
Will the DBC be making contact with AGB organization or not?
The more we speak out, the better informed the public will be for our pleas in helping deaf child learn their natural language – ASL and not be deprived of it for no reason.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Removed at the request of the commenter
July 29th, 2007 at 12:58 am
Ali-
I thought you already have your own God…Allah? No? Did you disown Allah and worship AGB now? How does your muslim people feel about this? How many times do you pray to AGB? same number as you used to pray to Allah? or do you have two gods now?
Just curious.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:54 am
Hello Elizabeth,
My first posted reply here to you and your remarkable work in the annals of the Deaf.
I wanted to respond to Ali and Penny. You have brought up the topic of God and prayer within the struggle of the dDeaf. Yes, we need to raise our consciousness even higher to reach the realms we deserve. We pray without and to G-d Who Need No Names. Let’s “pray” with the memory of dDeaf people in our past, our Elders, to fight on.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:50 am
CnKatz-
I agree with you and I always believe that God do not need names…I have never seen a muslim mentioned about another “God”…so I was surprised when Ali mentioned AGB as his God so I was curious and questioned him about it. Yes we need to remember our people in past,and to fight on.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:43 am
Thanks so much for being there! And thanks for the expression:
“lack of respect for deaf people because they are not hearing enough.”
That should become the mantra of the Coalition because it says it all. It is what we have been fighting for many years, it explains audism in one sharp line, and it nails the issue square on. Let’s hear what AGBAD has to say in response.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:17 am
Dianrez, I would be very, VERY surprised if AGBAD did say something about it.
That organization is good at sweeping what they don’t like under the rug and put on a fake smile. If they do make a public response to DBC, it will generate more media and attention towards DBC and the uneducated, duped AGBellers will find out the truth about ASL.
Do you really think AGBAD would allow DBC to be mentioned on their website or news articles?? That’s something to wonder about. Hmm.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Wow, Mishka Zena thank you SO MUCH for being there for all of us and the future Deaf children’s sake! Iam taking a BIG break from my vlog for a long while.. BIG HUGS, Shawn
July 29th, 2007 at 11:49 am
I have been reading all of the deaf blogs on the AG Bell Protest and just had one question in regards to the response from the Marriott Manager, has anyone thought about the fact that Marriott is private property, and although you are a guest of the hotel, you still must abide by the rules. Posted in numerous areas of the hotel are “No Soliciting” sign. This means that you are not permitted to hand out/sell anything with out the express permission of the hotel. Do you really think that the hotel just put those signs up for the AG Bell Conference. Maybe breaking the rules of the hotel was what got you in trouble with the hotel and not the AG Bell Coordinator. Of course the organization is going to protect its interest. It doesn’t want you to disrupt a conference for which they spent a lot of time and money on. It has nothing to do with not wanting to listen to your thoughts, but from the sounds of it, all you want is for them to listen to your thoughts and agree that you are all right and they are all wrong. Hey this is a free country, they can promote the thoughts that they want, as you can promote the ones that you want.
Has anyone out there actually tried to contact the organization and talk, or was it just we disagree with you so we are going to protest. Why not try to communicate your feelings. You want AG Bell to listen to you through your protest and you accuse them of disrespect, but isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black. You don’t listen to AG Bell, you twist information on their website for your own propaganda and then you cry foul when they protect their interest. I don’t think the organization has a lack of respect for deaf people because they are not hearing enough, I think deaf people have a lack of respect for the organization because they aren’t deaf enough.
What about the children you are purportedly trying to help. By telling the parents of these children that the only choice for their child is ASL, is that really giving them all of the information? Shouldn’t the parents be able to look at all of their options and then make a decision? (By the way, the child can not make the decision, it IS up to the parents, as to what they feel is the best choice for their child.
I think you should have all of your facts straight before you start a protest, but the truth will come out, and if your facts aren’t as accurate as they can be, it may do more harm than good.
BTW – I am a hearing parent with a deaf child and I knew all of my option. I had information on CI’s and ASL. My husband and I still chose to go with the CI, we feel that this will give our child the best life possible, and we HAD all of the information.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Common Sense-
You are not doing the best for your child. You are doing the best for YOURSELF. You don’t want your child to learn her world…ASL, Deaf culture, Identity and many more. You may allow her to learn ASL but the most part is that you wanted your child to have a machine in their ears so she can be robot in your world. I speak and lip read very well. I have no cochlear imnplant and don’t you dare to say I don’t have the best life possible. Yes I take advantage of what I have but it does not matter if I have machine in my ears or not. It the matter of gift and talent I have. I have seen kids using cochlear implants and their speech skills are not that great. Your information is totally based on myths. Look at many Deaf bloggers and Vloggers…they are Deaf using ASL and they are intelligent people. They have best life possible. They don’t need CI. They are already successful. Don’t insult us!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
The demonstrators were outside the hotel, on the public sidewalk. There was no reason for the attack by the hotel manager. John was inside to discuss what transpired with the hotel personnel the day before, violating the rights of Barb and Brianna, harming the child in the process.
I am glad you have the choice and you decided for C.I. That is not the issue. The issue is that AGB doesn’t present all the options for deaf children, but is extremely biased on one method. Parents are being told that deaf babies won’t learn to speak and listen if they are taught sign language. What nonsense. If the deaf children aren’t able to use their ears and voices yet, they should have the ability to communicate openly until they learn to speak and listen, if that’s the option the parents choose. Until then, how are they able to communicate and understand the world?
July 29th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
There is an alternative to protesting. Check what I wrote on Berke Outspoken.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Commen sense,
You must understand you are dealing with people who are irrational. They are so selfish that they only care about what they believe. They have absolutely no intention of getting into a constuctive dialogue. They only have protests and complaints, NO solutions.
As far as they are concerned, you as a parent cannot choose what you feel is right for your child.
To distrupt peoples lives who have nothing to do with thier protest, who perhaps are just visiting the area staying at this Marriot is again selfish. It is the same as during the GAllaudet protest. Nothing has been learned. They will cast a bad name on deaf people for thier selfish causes!!
July 29th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Jillian-
So does this mean Jenny who is a manager at Marriott Hotel (probably also cooperated with AGB) behaved rationally when she took flyers and torn them and took flyers away from intelligent 8 years old girl, Brianna? How can you say that Deaf protestors behaved irrational when they only distribute flyers? You need help with this and it looks like you are very confused with terms for rational and irrational behaviors. We are speaking up for our rights and what does this have to do with irrational behavior? There was a conference at Marriot Hotel so people were not just visiting the area…they were attending at cleansing conference. Are you following now?
July 29th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
To hearing mother of ci kid…you were not there. You were never deaf and you don’t know what it is like so you really don’t have a place to a
make such judgement.
We were not even welcomed by AG Bell when we attempted to receive information about their organization. They shut us out and did not even
make an atempt to have a dialogue with us but this was not the first time.
For years, the AG Bell organization rejected these Deaf children who are not hearing enough. If you really had done your homework about AG Bell, you would find that it was true that Deaf children who were not capable to be successful oralists would become ineligible to be branded as AG Bell’s children.
Even today there are many former oral failures stepping up saying how much they were opressed and abused with force. You may say oh this is
not what’s happening today and you are right but let me point out that those who didn’t make to the plate are still left with no dignitiy. They
were branded as failures that they missed out using signs since babyhood. Remember signs guarantee success for a lifetime regardless of
tie hearing level even those with ci implantees.
We have ben respectful of speech and listening and all we want to do is to add ASL period. Tell me how is it evident that AG Bell along with
AVT groups respect ASL and Deaf people when their goal is to ban signs for Deaf babies ? We are not even banning anything so don’t tell me that
we don’t respect them because they are not deaf enough. Just quit it.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Wanting deaf babies to have equal communication opportunities the hearing babies benefit is selfish? Due to immature vocal cords, parents of hearing babies are encouraged to teach sign language so the babies can communicate. However, deaf babies are not encouraged to use sign language. How are they to communicate … until they are able to use their voice box? Why is it ok for hearing babies, but not ok for deaf babies? I think it’s very selfish of parents to forbid deaf babies to sign while hearing babies are happily communicating with their parents in sign language. When the voice boxes are mature, then both groups can speak orally.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Barb -
I am sorry but I disagree with you. You are the one who hasn’t done their homework. I have looked at the AG Bell site and have spoken with Doctors who are members as well as doctors who are not members of AG Bell. No where on their website do they talk about not letting children/ or adults who are not successful oralist in their organization ( this is further solidified in the Head protester of the group who keeps saying he is a member of the AG Bell organization, they let him in, did they not.) Or are you talking about Dr. Bell himself, and that he excluded children who were not successful oralist, there is a difference between the two!
Also what information did you try to get from AG Bell, the information that they had available for the paying conference attendee? Well I could understand that. I am sure that if you wanted to pay to attend the conference they would have been more than happy to allow you all the information that you would like. I have heard all of the protester say they kicked us off the conference room floor. Well of course they did. Did you pay? Why should you get a free ride to attend the conference where everyone else had to pay? Because you are deaf? Because you are protesting? That doesn’t make any sense. Also, wasn’t this a professional conference (meaning for the professional members of AG Bell, ie Cert AVT’s) what was accomplished by protesting the professionals. It appears your message is for parents.
You say all you want to do is add ASL. How are you furthering that mission. By telling parents that they should not have a choice of how they raise their children? Where on the AG Bell website does it say that they ban the use of ASL? I have looked and cannot find it, show me, I would be glad to listen. I am trying to make the best choice for my child, as all parents try to do. But having a group of people tell me that I am making a wrong choice because I believe in CI’s and that I and my husband are selfish for making the choice that we made is ridiculous.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Mishkazena -
I am confused…You say that when the attack happened you were outside of the hotel on a public sidewalk and that John was inside discussing the attack with hotel personnel. How is that possible if the attack hasn’t happened yet?????
Also, I was able to find links to look at the ASL option for my child on the AB Bell website, but while I was on the NAD website I didn’t see any information on CI’s. Are you protesting NAD for not giving parents the option of using CI’s? Probably not, because they are doing what you want, they are giving parents information on ASL. My opinon is that NAD is extremely biased on one method as well (ASL). From the NAD point of view parents aren’t being told the their deaf babies can learn to listen and speak. What nonsense is that. I have a right to options for my child!
Penny -
You have no right to tell me that I am not doing what is right for my child. I am not being selfish, I am being logical and rational.My child is and will always be around deaf culture (My mother in law is deaf and she received her CI when she was 56), my child has friends who are also deaf, some have CI’s others don’t. My decision has nothing to do with wanting my child to be a robot and have a machine in her ears. My decision has to with living in the real world and knowing what it is like to live life with disability, and knowing that if there is an option out there to help with that disability and it is the right option for me that I should take it. Don’t judge just because everyone doesn’t agree with you. Your comment is the same as if I say to you that you are selfish because you want your child to only use ASL because YOU don’t want to deal with the CI’s and the therapy, because it may make you look like a traitor to your cause, where in reality, it would be saying that you had an option and that you chose for your child to have a CI and to learn ASL. (Nobody insulted you, if anyone insulted anyone, you insulted me. You have the best life possible, just as my child will have the best life possible, it all has to do with what you define as best!)
Jillian – Thanks for the comment. I agree that we are not dealing with rational individuals. This is supported by the rude and insulting comments that were directed at me for voicing my comment. Not once did I issue an insult, but I was told how selfish I was for my decision. I agree with your comment that they will continue to cast a bad name on deaf people for their selfish cause. Instead of educating parents about all options they are fighting an organization that provides support about one option and resources about the other options. they would rather protest than open a dialogue.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Common Sense
The attack happened on Friday afternoon outside on the public sidewalk outside of the hotel property. The people were passing the flyers peacefully, smiling when they were attacked by the enraged hotel manager and their flyers forcibly taken and destroyed without permission. The child got scratched in the process and she became terrified. There was no attempt to communicate with them, even though her mother can talk and lipread. The next day, John, Barb, and Brianna along with their lawyer reported the assault to the police and afterwards spoke with the hotel personnel. The police said that the flyers weren’t negative, as it stressed the benefits of ASL with hearing babies, and that the deaf people have the right to free speech.
NAD does have articles on C.I. Here are the links:
http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=138140
http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=399061
For me, I have no problem with the parents making informed decisions to obtain C.I.s for their children. They choose what they feel is the best for their children. I can understand your reasoning as my mother raised me orally, too. I went to hearing schools, too. My concern is the ability of the deaf children to communicate before they are mature enough to use their voice boxes. How can they express themselves? More hearing babies are learning sign language so they can communicate with their parents, then once they are able to use their voices, they discontinue the signing. But the deaf babies are not given the same benefits the hearing babies enjoy.
C.I. is not 100% successful for all deaf children. There is a wide range of results among C.I. kids. Some are completely successful while with others, their C.I.s don’t help much with their speech comprehension. Personally I think it is important for the babies to have a visual sign language while they attempt to master speech and listening… so to keep the communication open and have access to a full language while reducing their frustration level. Understanding enables them to speak and listen better.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
I am an AGBell member and I was told by Jenny Botero, the head manager of Marriott not to go to the second floor where AGBell is having the conference.
Jenny Botero had an attitude that I have never seen any managers of any hotel. With her body language and tone of her voice, anybody can tell that she wasn’t “working” for Marriott at the time and seems that she was on a mission for AGBell. She harassed an eight old deaf girl. Would you think that Jenny Botero would harassed a hearing or black 8 year old girl?
Some of the commenters were not there at Marriott and speaking as an opinionated person which should be ignored. Don’t waste your time doing the rebuttal with them.
I will discuss with any parents about their choice for their deaf child after the child becomes 18 years old because we will know if a parent have made the correct choice after listening what their deaf child had to say.
John F. Egbert
July 29th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Common Sense-
I apologize if I had insulted you. I get very emotional when comes to CI. I am also not pleased when I see Deaf adults or adults who became deaf later to have CI because they set bad role models to hearing parents of Deaf children to think it is okay for their child to have CI. CI will not solve everything. Parents who never meet a Deaf individual may think CI will make a child smarter and successful in education and career life. It is not true. They will always face hurdles in life. Always! CI is not going to mask their disability. My point here is why put machine in children ears while they are young and there is no 100% guarantee that CI will succeed them. No guarantee. Why not let child be child…it is okay to be Deaf…it is okay if a child can’t speak…it is okay if a child can’t lip read. They have hands and there is a language…a true language that child converse…ASL. My mother is Deaf, can’t lip read, can’t speak…did not finish H.S. Her children except me are hearing and they are doing well in life. My mother did not need CI to raise her children. She did the best of her ability. My point here is why fix on a child…Why risk on a child…surgery is not always 100% safe…side effects… saw the skull, move the brain to implant…and etc. If you invest your time with your child using ASL…you will be amazed that your child will turn out to be a great individual without needing CI. How many parents out there use sign language to communicate with their Deaf children? How many? Many of them think CI will solve everything and Deaf children can learn to speak and hear well. This information is myth so we have a good cause to fight for Deaf children and their rights. They are being handcuffed so we need to speak out for them.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
John -
Being an AG Bell member and being a paying conference attendee are two different things. Many professional organizations have conferences which cost extra, attending the conference is not a benefit of being a member. My understanding from the AG Bell website is that if you wanted to sign up for the conference it would cost 295USD for an AG Bell Member to attend and that you could register on site, if you so chose, so I still don’t understand why there is discussion on why you couldn’t go to the conference. I am sure if you would have told Ms. Botero that you were registering for the conference she would have let you go up and register and then take all the information that you wanted.
On Ms. Botero attitude, I can’t tell you why she acted the way you say, although from reading the other post on different sites, I am not completely convinced that all the protesters were darling little angels and that Ms. Botero was the only irrational person. And I doubt very seriously that AG Bell has enough power to corrupt a whole Marriott Hotel. And as you said she harassed an 8 year old deaf girl, this sounds a little off to me. You are saying that this 8 year deaf girl is handing out fliers (which in my mind is harassing to me, because I may just be staying at the hotel enjoying a stay in the nation’s capital, and have nothing to do with AG Bell or it’s conference attendees) and I am now bombarded with propaganda that doesn’t concern me or my stay. Were you using the little girl to make a point. Should she get away with things that an adult wouldn’t get away with – because she is an 8 year old little girl? I agree that if Ms. Botero attacked this little girl than that was wrong on her part, but I also think it is wrong to use an 8 year old little girl to prove/make a point. Did that child have a choice as to whether she wanted to participate, or did her parents tell her what to do and she had to do it. Isn’t this, in a way, the same thing you are criticizing AG Bell for – not giving children a choice?
As for the statement that you will discuss with any parent after a child turns 18 whether they made the right decision – what does that mean? Because parents made a choice that you disagree with they are not worthy of your time. We as parents have the right to make the decision that we feel is best for our child, just as you have that right to make decision that you feel are best for your child. And I don’t have to answer to anyone about that decision, as long as I made an *informed* decision! It doesn’t matter if my child is 1 day old or 18 years old. It is my child and I am entrusted with the care of that child, not any protest group or organization!
July 29th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
CommonSense –
I do not agree with you in many ways. At this point, Ms. Jenny Botero is an adult and professional manager. However, Jenny Botero’s behaviors toward Brianna and Raychelle in the public, was unacceptable and uncalled for. As you can see several vlogs of Jenny Botero’s poor attitude! Obviously, public area and front of the people.
Got the picture, common sense?
White Ghost
July 29th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
The eight years old kid and her mother were already outside of the hotel property, on the public sidewalk when they were attacked. This is why they filed a formal complaint to the police and obtained a lawyer to protect their rights. You do not know Barb and Brianna, but they are very nice people.
And, yes, it was Brianna’s decision to participate in the protest. She feels strongly about this issue. FYI, other children also participated peacefully as they feel deaf children should have full access of communication, too.
July 29th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
White Ghost – If you acted as hostile as you sound towards me then yes I have the picture. I have the picture that what might have happened was in defense for the way that you were acting. You have a right to disagree with me or others all you want, but to try to use intimidation or a child to further your cause is not acceptable either. I did already say (Read above) that if Ms. Botero attacked a child than she was wrong, I didn’t say that I agree with Ms. Botero handling of the situation, but (as I clearly see now) you all might not have acted an the innocent angels that you want everyone to believe you are. So let’s see – do you have the get the picture. Attacking me isn’t helping you, it just drives my point more and more. All I am saying is that I have a choice as a parent, and as long as the decision is informed, you have no right to judge or tell me whether I was right or wrong.
Get the picture!!!!
July 29th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
I do NOT care if I have no right to judge or tell you whether you were right or wrong.
Everybody in this world know that Jenny Botero is a manager and she should have known better like that. She was out of control. Therefore, I do not think she CAN handle any people.
White Ghost
July 29th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Bystander – How bad was the attack. From the video of the 8 year old it was a scratch on her hand, which could have come from anything. Being nice people doesn’t have anything to do with anything. If a formal complaint was filed then let the legal system take justice, don’t try the case on blogs, it doesn’t help anyone.
How much of a decision can an 8 year old have in participating in a protest. She is 8! 8 year olds do what parents tell them to do.
July 29th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
White ghost – You are to hostile, how is what you are saying to be believed. You seem to emotionally connected to have logical reasoning. If she did as you keep saying than the legal system will have justice for the 8 year old. It is not up to you or me. I understanding the fight, but you should present facts not try to use emotional intimidation. Your hostility is not bettering your cause, your attack on me furthers what other are saying!
July 29th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Common Sense,
I have met this 8 year old deaf girl and she was the one that wanted to be participating in the “social awareness” by handing out flyers, not her mother. Brianna is an intelligent 8 year old girl.
In my opinion, you are reflecting this 8 year old deaf girl, Brianna, that she needs to be told what to do in comparsion some 8 year old deaf girl that doesn’t have a complete cognitive language yet which is common to a deaf child still learning to verbally speak in the hearing world at that age.
It takes one to know one, you have no idea what it is like to be deaf and the hardships of learning to speak verbally.
John
July 29th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
CommonSense,
No offense – You have NO common sense at all because you don’t know what it is like to be Deaf or HH person like us including YOUR own child! If you were in our shoes .. you will get the picture right away!
I agree with Penny. She quotes …..
“So does this mean Jenny who is a manager at Marriott Hotel (probably also cooperated with AGB) behaved rationally when she took flyers and torn them and took flyers away from intelligent 8 years old girl, Brianna? Penny – An excellent point! You are worth a 2 pennies (2 cents)!
Diane — A proudly Deaf woman who learned ASL at 19.
July 29th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Hold it right there Common Sense! Do not jump to conclusion about my daughter or how the decision-making process is involved when it comes to making plans about attending to the protest. I would never, ever force my children to participate into something that is against their will and that includes cochlear implant. Before the protest, I had explained to them (yes 8 yrs old is awfully young but she is an exceptional individual who is mature for her age that she has a mind of her own) the purpose and the procedure of the protest. I even ASKED them (unlike you who did not even ask your child whether to have a cochlear implant) if they wanted to go and they did. If they didn’t, I would not even attend because they come FIRST!
Excuse me? I happen to teach Deaf History for 15 years and who are you to tell me to do my homework? Sheesh..look around and read more about the history of AG Bell. AG Bell was an Eugentic and the organization today still bears his name that is symbolic to his belief. Perhaps it is not as relevant as it is today but what is relevant is that AG Bell is in partnership with AVT that actually BANS signs in Deaf babies. Of course they were shrewd enough not to say it in their website but it doesn’t mean that they are unbiased. I already made a vlog about this in case you missed it.
The message shared at the protest was not limited to parents but to everyone who was directly involved in the business of working with deaf children. This is only the beginning and wait and see how the message will continue to spread and reach out to anyone who has contact with deaf children like WILDFIRE!
Of course you would not understand because you are not willing to be objective so I better stop and not wasting my time with you.
July 29th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
John – I have to agree to disagree with you on this one. It doesn’t matter how intelligent a child is they are still in their formative years at this age. She may have wanted to go, but does she really understand everything about the protest. You yourself said that you didn’t want to talk to parent of a CI until the child was 18 and could then tell you if the right decision was made. I am sure this little girl is wonderful and brilliant, but she is still an 8 year old little girl. I am not reflecting on any 8 year old deaf girls, I am however reflecting on children as a whole, deaf or hearing and how they mature. True some children mature faster than other, but there is still some impressionable years left in them to form their own ideas.
Wow Diane – If this was what the protester were like at the Marriott it answers a lot of questions I had. Between you and White Ghost the hostility that you have proves to no only me by the whole world (as you all like to say) that it wasn’t a peaceful protest, but one that was wrought with hostility! I get the picture, I deal with my child their friends everyday. You don’t have to have a disability to understand the cause.
To all – you don’t have to deaf or hard of hearing to understand the cause, you just neeed to have passion about the cause.
July 29th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
CommonSense, from what I read so far, you’re actually lacking in common sense and courtesy. Your sense of direction here is distorted. I see you chose to be ignorant and stubborn. Like Barb said, you cannot be objective. Grow up! You and your child will face situations that you assume u guys will not expect from *your peers*. The soul inside of every deaf child will induce him or her to sign any way. When these days come, think of us.
July 29th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
CommonSense!
Shame on you for being a narrow-minded person! Why the world do you think that I am hostile on you about the hotel manager, Jenny? You are defending on her and AG Bell. Huh….
I have to say I agree with DRMZZ and Barb Digi for what they said about you!
Time to grow up!
Proud to be an ASL user since I was 15 years old!
White Ghost
July 29th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
I will make a friendly vlog about the 2 parallels between 8 years old deaf girl and 8 years old hearing girl shortly. Hang in there.
Diane
July 29th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
To Common sense:
My 8 yr old Deaf son understood the purpose of the DBC in few seconds when I explained to him while we were in front of the computer. He wanted to fly out to Wash DC badly – he begged & begged.. I sure wished we could be there. Allow me tell you little about him.
He acquired ASL at age 3. With his 5 years in ASL, he is truly remarkable boy with bright mind. As a deep thinker, he is able to rationalize the cause/effect of this peaceful protest. He is interested in international protests for human rights, animal rights, and for the worldwide peace.
It’s NOT CI itself, it’s NOT ASL itself, it’s NOT hearing parents, it’s NOT Deaf parents .. We the Deaf community only want to see the deaf babies having visual language – our ASL. With CI, AVT, and so forth – it’s fine as long as the deaf babies/toodler have visual language .. if AVT/Speech didn’t help the child, and the child is so fortuante having ASL. The child will NOT be delayed academically. In our Deaf history, there are so many deaf children/adults who are delayed in language because they did NOT have ASL when they were little.
Hope you’ll be able to see why we’re doing this. I personally am NOT against CI, AVT, Speech – I do see some benefits for SOME deaf children *not all children*. I personally am FOR visual language for ALL children (deaf and hearing).
July 29th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Oh boy.
We really don’t need infighting… this kind of fighting is what divides us. We need to respect people’s choices, even parents’ (hearing and deaf) choices about their children’s lives. AFter all, “deafread.com” is NOT ASLread.com, so it SHOULD embrace all kinds of deaf people, even hearing parents of deaf children, late deafened adults, oral, cued speech, etc.
Because I was not at the demonstration, I am still waiting for videos so that I could get a better picture of body posturing, facial expressions, etc before I make any judgments. As I said in Seek Geo, I think it is fine for children to participate in any demonstrations as long as they are peaceful, part of learning experiences for their growing up, to have an idea of what advocating is all about.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
If you don’t believe what we say, go watch Raychelle’s and Amy Cohen Efron’s videoclips. In Raychelle’s, you would see Jenny run around on the public sidewalk as if her head were blown away like a volcano. Her face was so red and hysterical! Very theatrical and exaggerating. All demonstrators did was peacefully distributing flyers. I have been a peace activist for many years, but I am telling you that I have never seen anyone like AGB’s Jenny who acted as if Marriott was hit by Al-Qaede on 9/11. AGB was a mad genius. He was EXUDING his madness into Jenny on the PUBLIC sidewalk. The Raychelle video costs as much as any Picasso!
July 29th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Common Sense, You seem pretty hostile based your writings. Easy to jump and make conclusions, no?
July 29th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
Common Sense,
Brianna said the lady scratched her and that she was terrified, seeing the lady acting like that and hurting her. This wasn’t an appropriate behavior from a ‘professional’ manager. I cannot see how you could justify defending her actions and ‘pooh poohing’ an eight year old child.
Apparently you haven’t met Brianna. She is quite an intelligent, articulate and confident child who knows where she stands. She has strong opinions of her own, alright and isn’t acting under orders of a parent.
It is obvious you are on one mind track and very unwilling to hear what Deaf people has to say. They know what it is like to be Deaf while you don’t. I hope for your kid’s sake C.I. will be successful despite the odds, because your kid has no language to fall back if it isn’t successful. Just keep in mind that not all C.I.s are as successful as touted by C.I. companies.
Good luck
July 30th, 2007 at 3:34 am
Common sense/Parents:
Go and learn ASL like many parents are teaching their hearing ASL. No?
Seems nothing new is that AGB is the one in making who has historically divided any population by wishing upon one man’s belief. Who? Go research.
ASL is a valuable addition in my entire hearing family. We are speaking and signing families. Without ASL, our family would miss something important. Communication with complete connections with closeness.
Thanks to DEAF people, it is a wonderful opportunity to have a sign language. You may have no idea what I am talking about.
God knows why sign language is also valuable. My children are now in private universities and also work at Gallaudet University. They love where they are.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:57 am
Who are you to people to judge me???? I made my opinion known that I think that a parent has the right to chose to proper course of action for their deaf children. If anyone is narrow-minded, I believe it is you. If someone does not agree with you you insult them? That is narrow minded. I never once defended Ms. Botero, all I said was if she did attack this child then file a police report and let the law handle it. I also said that if she did attack this child then she was wrong. How is that defending her. It seems that all you want to hear is what you have to say and “pooh-pooh” to the rest of us , because we are not deaf enough. That seems to go against all that you are protesting. I keep hearing that AG Bell doesn’t want you in their organization because you are deaf deaf enough, but it seems it might be the other way around.
As for my defending anyone, I and my husband and child are the only ones that I am defending. AG Bell doesn’t need me to defend them, nor does Marriott. All I am defending is my right as a parent to chose the option I feel will give my child the best life possible. You don’t have to agree with my decision, but to insult me, proves how narrow-minded you all really are!!!
July 30th, 2007 at 8:16 am
I believe commonsense is right… we did judge her without getting to know where she was coming from. If we judged her, we all judged our parents. My son CHOSE speaking/listening over ASL… judge him. My daughter is fluent in ASL but likes talking… judge her. Judge me. Or better still, blame “system”. This is getting a little tiring.
We agreed to listen and respect. Not to try to change other’s mind. Words are limiting, so it leaves a lot of room for anyone’s interpretation of what the writer tries to say.
As I said before, http://www.deafread.com should EMBRACE and RESPECT ALL kinds of people.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:51 am
One more thing Common Sense,
You said that:
“Did that child have a choice as to whether she wanted to participate, or did her parents tell her what to do and she had to do it.”
“How much of a decision can an 8 year old have in participating in a protest. She is 8! 8 year olds do what parents tell them to do.”
Believe me, when any of my kids don’t want something, they will make it damn clear! This is the kind of children I have raised, mind you.
These statements indicated that you are judging me what I do as a mother like telling them what to do, whoa! You were not even there with me witnessing the whole process how the decision was made for my children to be a part of the protest. Who are you to judge me as a kind of mother to tell them what to do by participating the protest though?
Actually, I don’t blame other commenters for pouring out their emotions because you have provoked them like you did to me.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:53 am
DBC is kind of watchdog over AGBELL, as long as DBC did good job their tactics which are very impressed, IT is new social awareness, educating the public that really threaten AGBELl. I understand it was very beginning to have very small number of protestors. I saw them wearing yellow T Shirt displayed very msg and I believe DBS will attract the number of supporting in the future if DBC must continue to keep peaceful demonstration. The more chance DBC win their publlc. It will force AGBELL changing whole things about baby signing not just one things more things to come. Next stop will be Milwakee, Wisconsin might be more people will join the peaceful demonstration with just flyers and wear T shirt yellow will do that msg!! Require patience and take time to build the strenght in DBC. The public will respond to DBC in very positive!
July 30th, 2007 at 9:00 am
*Chuckling*… yeah, Barb’s kids are strong-willed all right. They can speak for themselves and even fight for what they believe in. My kids did play with them a lot when we lived in Rochester, NY and they already had their minds of their own since they were young. I know they looked sweet in the videotapes, but in real life, they are full of zest!
)
July 30th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Barb – I did not judge you. From your first comment to me, you have judged me. Until I read your last post, I did not even know that the 8 year old child was yours. Nor did I say what kind of mother you are. You read stuff into statements and twist them for your own use. So far I haven’t provoked anyone. I stated my opinion on the matter and then you all decided to judge me as a parent of a CI kid. One of you stated that I wasn’t doing the best for my child by making them a “robot”. Others have expressed the same sentiment. You are right, I do not know you or your kids, as you do not know me either. I do know 8 year old children though, and I don’t believe that any 8 year old child, no matter how smart, brilliant, intelligent they may be, they are not fully mature enough to understand everything about the protest. Children have an inherent need to be approved of by their parents, no matter whether they are hearing or deaf, to that end they will participate willingly in most activities that they feel are supported by their parents. I do believe that your children are strong willed and can speak for themselves, that isn’t in question. What I don’t believe is that an 8 year old child, deaf or hearing, is fully mature enough to understand this protest.
BTW – that comment is not judging you, it is an opinion from a person, that you have deemed not deaf enough. But for your information, I am part of the deaf community, because I have a child who is deaf, and she is my priority, and the deaf community is part of who she is, but I will not stand by, while certain members of the deaf community tell my child that I am not a good mother, because we chose for her to have a CI. It is your opinion that children should not be implanted, and I respect that opinion, but it is my opinion that the implant was and is the best choice for my child!
July 30th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
CommonSense… I might be shot down, but we do need some people like you to help bring the balance in the DeafRead.com. It is always good to hear different opinions… but ’tis human nature to feel threatened and to lash back even when the opinions are just… opinions. You made many valid points that I can’t ignore. So did other commenters who went to the demonstration. It is good to step back and listen to both sides to get a full picture.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
I am sorry, but no hearing person can understand what it is like to be Deaf unless they experience deafness themselves first. Just like I cannot understand what it is like to be an African American or blind because I never experience either one. I can try to get an idea, but fully experience it.. nope. I am aware that I will never see things the same way they do, no matter how hard I try, and I will never un determine them by implying that I do understand them because my daughter is blind.
Let me make this clear. It’s not about AVT. It’s not about CI. I am not against AVT nor am I with C.I. as long as parents make informed decision. I understand that they make the decisions based on their belief that this is the best for their child. It is all about the deaf babies being permitted to express themselves just like hearing babies are encouraged to as ALL babies cannot speak words.
Tell me why Deaf babies are discouraged from sign language when so many parents of hearing babies eagerly embrace this wonderful opportunity for their babies to express themselves? How can Deaf babies express themselves until they are able to use speech?
July 30th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
You are right, we don’t know what it is like to be deaf, but some of us know what it is like to live with a disability. We know what it is like to have options and to be able to live in a country where you have the freedom to make a decision without being judged a bad parent for that decision.
I still haven’t been able to find anywhere on the AG Bell website where they talk about or direct parents to BAN the use of ASL. I have looked and looked and haven’t found it. Help me see it, if it is there. I want to be informed, but so far all I hear is that I am not deaf enough to make an educated and informed decision for my child’s well being.
My child, nor I or my husband, have ever been discouraged from learning ASL. What we have chosen, we have chosen for us, our family and our situation.
July 31st, 2007 at 3:40 pm
To CommonSense:
I assume that you are hearing… I dont think that you have not meet any deaf children before… or you have not seen any deaf children who are understand or matured about the protest at AGB last weekend…
I worked with deaf children from age 6 to 18 years old and I have seen deaf children do have mature and understand what the protest is about..
ASL is important to deaf children to understand to communicate each others and development their language better. Myself I grew up, I was oralist and I was not allowed to use sign language in the past. I was also delayed with my language which I was very disappointed and very frustrated myself because I could not understand them (teachers, my parents, my friends and my family). When I learned ASL when I was 16 years old. Then I picked up my language very late, which is very SHAME!!!! I DO EMBARRASSED MYSELF because my language was delayed… WHY, ME????? BEcause of AGB???? I dont want happened to deaf babies like me in their future.. I encourage ALL deaf BABIES to use SIGN LANGUAGE… I impress and applause that Amy Cohon-Efron and Barb DiGi and John Egbert did it…
CommonSense, YOU DONT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT DEAF CULTURE and CAN YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF??? GO visit DEAF CLUB or GO VISIT DEAF SCHOOLS??
WAKE UP YOURSELF???
July 31st, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Around the World – You don’t know anything about me, or what I know about Deaf Culture! I have immersed myself in the Deaf Culture where I live, I have visited the clubs and the schools. Maybe you didn’t see the part that says, I have a DEAF child! I am immersing myself more and more everyday in this culture, but it makes me think twice about it when someone like you is so disrespectful towards me.
I have learned a lot about certain aspect of deaf culture, just from these blogs. One thing that these blogs showed me as a parent was that there is no acceptance in this group, there is no middle ground. If someone feels different than you about the subject you judge them, call them selfish and abusive parents. You have a message that you want parents to know all of the options available for their child, but you say that a parent should not be allowed to implant their child until 18. You contradict yourself, and you abuse the same parents that you are trying to reach out to. No wonder more and more parents are turning to CI’s.
I thought that these blogs were open for discussions on the topic. I am not asking anyone to agree with me, but I am asking you to respect me and my husband and OUR decision.
We do not know if the CI will be a success for our child, but we do know that our child will grow up in a world of love and acceptance of all people, no matter the disability. She is (and will continue to be) taught not to judge others because they are not like her, or do not agree with her opinion.
Maybe there are more lesson to be learned here than just ASL vs. CI. You can’t reach out to the parents that you want to reach out too by being disrespectful and insulting.
August 1st, 2007 at 4:37 am
You truly inspire me. From what I know, AGB doesn’t promote sign language. They knew their position very well. How unfortunate yet true.
I lost my job at one of the oral institutes just because I shared sign language in front of children. These kids picked up naturally than I first thought, and it was something noteworthy in my life.
I had done this few times to motivate students’ academic learning in which the people’s circle (parents and staff members) dumped me nowhere else. I moved on and always think how the children are doing these days academically and spiritually.
That group of staff labeled me as a freak which was not too surprising and intimidating.
See, it wasn’t too friendly community nor did I want to be part of their own world to live within. At least I wasn’t a criminal if you know what I was saying.
I pray these kids will learn how to live peacefully and a full of life.
To some of you might wonder about me right now, I landed an education research firm job in Northeastern State. Surprisingly, I personally met a lead researcher, who graduated Gallaudet several years ago, she trained some new hires like myself with her interpreter. So thrilled and I knew what I believe.
This moment had always struck me because this kind of community really works for her everyday.
I told her about what’s happening right now. She said, “Nothing new. Its (AGB) philosophy which has always used a divide and conquer tact.”
August 1st, 2007 at 8:04 am
Common Sense. I grew up 100% Oral and have many friends who remain oral. When I started using sign language, I encountered tremendous disapproval from AGB people. They are now little more tolerant with the deaf adults, but AGB continues to ‘frown’ on deaf children using sign language, though they are savvy not to mention it in their website. They also don’t comment much about ASL, another tactic. However, if you check their job ads, there is a statement that they do not hire Deaf people who signs. These applicants are told to go to NAD and Gallaudet. There are many clues if one wants to look closely.
Also you are aware that there are some Deaf people who are neutral about C.I. and AVT and feel it is the parents’ decision to make. I made my position clear that it is not an issue for me and so did others. Yet, you decided to focus on the other group who are biased.
Nobody has yet answered my question about the disparity of growing popularity of hearing babies signing while hearing parents of deaf babies are not encouraged to sign. I am just so sorry that there is such a stigma about sign language that deaf babies have no way of communicating until they are able to form words. That’s the tragedy.
However, we do have hearing parents who are aware of the baby signs and decide to take advantage of that while pursuing C.I. and AVT. The child has full access of communication. If you want to hear the mother’s story, here is the link: http://blog.deafread.com/abcohende/2007/07/31/the-greatest-irony-parents-response/
August 1st, 2007 at 10:17 am
MishkaZena,
Your latest comment just couldn’t have been CLEARER!
I don’t understand why people continue to argue that it’s about attacking parents’ decisions.
It’s about BABY SIGNS – it’s been proven to be very, very beneficial for the hearing babies. The same is very true for deaf babies!
That’s all there is to it!
As MishkaZena pointed out, many deaf people are neutral about the CI and AVT. Their main concern is the same access to the beneficial of using ASL as a way of communicating with their parents before they speak.
While I may disagree with how the protest was planned, DBC’s main goal was to INCLUDE ASL as a way of communicating with deaf babies from AGB.
If it really benefited hearing babies, why can’t AGB admit that as well for deaf babies?
Please look at Amy Cohen Efron’s latest blog that MishkaZena provided with a link and you’ll see many encouraging comments to a mother of a CI child.
Again, it’s BABY SIGNS for ALL. Not just for hearing but also deaf, purple, brown, orange, or red…
It BENEFITS most, if not all, babies!
August 1st, 2007 at 10:37 am
I’ve been skimming through the comments, and man… I’m just struck at how emotional everyone’s being. People don’t recognize, or refuse to admit that many of the DBC’ers ARE criticizing parents’ choices. That will only anger parents. “With a CI, your child will end up this way! How horrible and sad!”
On the other hand, people are criticizing Barb Digi’s choice to bring her child to the protest.
So everyone gets into an uproar, because they’re doing the exact same thing to each other.
Stop. Think. Being overly emotional on this will get us nowhere. That is exactly why we have gotten nowhere in the past hundred years.
It is about parents’ choices. They are entitled to make choices that we don’t like. They are also fully entitled to make mistakes, just like we are, and DO!
If we truly want full access and equality, we need to try different tactics, like I listed on my blog. But apparently for some, that’s too business-like. After all, advocacy isn’t a business, right? It’s a hobby and done for fun.
August 1st, 2007 at 11:31 am
Yeah… I see that many deaf people have a lot of anger which lead them to making emotionally-based judgements (like it happened with CommonSense who tried to point out that many hearing parents did take their time to make the decisions and got accused of harming her deaf child.) My concern about DBC is its platform… deaf babies. Okay, what is next? It seems to me that people involved in DBC are already planning the exinction of AGB. To me, there is a lot of murky waters and all we did was to make already murky waters murkier.
That is why I am wary of emotional v/bloggers and commenters… a few vloggers talked about Hilter… give me a break. From my experience and observations, emotional people don’t always think logically, able to see the whole pictures—even the “Bigger” picture.
August 1st, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Mishka Zena,
I am still waiting for the written proof that AG Bell is against ASL completely. It was a valid question which no one has answered.
You say you can’t be part of deaf culture if you aren’t deaf. That my friend is a selfish statement. To be part of a family full of deaf people and friends attending thier schools and functions with friends is being part of deaf culture whether you believe it or not.
To keep attacking a mother who feels she is doing the right thing for her children is juvenile and disrespectful. Not to mention rude!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:03 am
To Karen Mayers:
So…who’s forcing you to read the bloggers?
You said:
That is why I am wary of emotional v/bloggers and commenters… a few vloggers talked about Hilter… give me a break. From my experience and observations, emotional people don’t always think logically, able to see the whole pictures—even the “Bigger†picture.
So- why even bother reading the blogers if you so turn off by them?
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:13 am
In fact, Hilter wanted to wipe Jews out. Spain wanted to wipe cult out in Mexico(Aztec). those terrorist groups wanted to wipe whatever out to keep what they believe in. AGB wanted to wipe deafness out…eager to marrying hearing, CI(fixed to hear), AVT(ban sign), etc. He wanted to make the law to ban deaf marry to deaf. How SAD! He had a goal to have ASL extinct someday….but it never will HAPPEN.
Point is that deaf babies deserve to have a sign baby to communicate. that helps a baby to less frustrate. that is all i say.
August 3rd, 2007 at 11:18 am
wow lots of discussion
emotions r really running high
very understandable – this subject hits very close to home – literally we r talking about how people have been or are being raised in their home
everyone’s home is their own domain so commenting and criticizing someone’s upbringing or rearing skills is going too close to home literally
re: the di giovanni kids – no questions – outstanding parents – outstanding bilingual environment – high critical and cultural literacy
i really give high honors to barb as an activist, educator, vlogger and most especially as a mom
my children have been attending peaceful protests for a while – it is always their choice and i would never bring them if there was a likelihood of any direct threat to them. the response of the mariot manager was completely unexpected and uncalled for.
it is ALWAYS my kids choice if they want to come or not
re: common sense – i believe u r a loving and caring mother no question
u would not be reading and posting here if u were not
i too had a hard time finding any statement in AG Bell website banning signing but i did find:
http://www.agbellacademy.org/whatISAuditoryVerbalTherapy.htm
see #3
within the AG Bell association website and also its origins – the philosophy is always aural / oral – signing is accepted as a last resort. the volta review is full of oral / aural only research and promotion as well
i believe Miskha gave u links of where in the NAD site there is info on CI and other oral / aural services
u probably already know that AVT has now been integrated into the AG Bell association and they offer training and certification as they were at the very conference DBC was protesting at
AVT literature clearly states that signing is NOT part of their program – if a parent or child should chose to use sign language or a communication system other than spoken English that is the families choice but not what AVT is advocating for. i have not seen any of their literature recognize ASL itself
the history and continued binary approach of oral / aural programs is the crux of the issue
oral / aural only programs have ALWAYS excluded sign language
this is what makes Deaf people very upset and smacks of linguistic genocide
whereas Deaf advocates of ASL have always advocated for BI-lingualism – DBC believes that Deaf people have a birthright to ASL because it is the most FULLY accessible and natural language of Deaf people – they also advocate for the acquistion of English (written and spoken if applicable)
Bilingualism means two languages – it does not mean two languages simultaneously – just as bilingual households (french and English or Spanish and English) would NOT teach their children to speak French while writing English simultaneously
so while ASL advocates do not support simultaneous -communication (signing and talking at the same time) they do support ASL fluency and English fluency as separate and equally valued languages
common sense – i would really love to learn more about your perspective if u dont mind
age of your child, if u use any sign language in the home, does the child have any exposure to Deaf ASL users (children and/or adults)
i ask this not because i am judging u – im just trying to learn why some people would opt for just one language for deaf children – and in the case of spoken English that means picking a not fully accessible language – which requires an inordinate amount of guess work and labor on the Deaf child’s part as well as the parents
just wondering ur perspective – if there was some ASL at home and in the school environment – i dont see how this would prohibit or hinder a deaf child’s oral / auditory development
it has been proven that ASL fluency in the home leads to strong English skills via bilingualism
a poor analogy might be a child who is legally blind and the professionals deciding the child should not be introduced to braille nor use a cane so that s/he might learn how to estimate distances and space and obstacles via other more difficult and inaccurate methods and learn to read by making approximatations with the few shapes of the letters s/he can see in print
i apologize in advance if this analogy is cheap or insulting to anyone
im just trying to figure out why giving a Deaf child – TWO languages is viewed as such a horrible thing
Deaf history is full of many many many extraordinary Deaf individuals who were bilingual – fluent and eloquent ASL users as well as skilled English users as well
pls help me understand
to all who have posted and care about the topic – thank u
peace
patti
August 4th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Patti… I suggest that you head over to DeafDC.com in which there are blogs about this subject. Making the decisions is not always easy, especially with emotions involved, as all the parents (deaf/hearing) know. I admire CommonSense for having courage to speak up and I am sorry to see that she got judged.
To the Truth says: I make the decision to read the blogs to get the whole picture of the discussion. I only said it, just my observation and I did not ask for your judgement. Remember, truth is not black/white… it is more of a gray area.
)
Enjoy your day.
August 4th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
I never said anything about people not belonging to Deaf Community because they are not deaf. I suggest you reread my comments carefully as you seem a little fond of twisting things. All I said is that there is no way for a hearing person to really understand what it is like to be deaf. Just like I cannot understand what it is like to be autistic or hispanic.
I understand the hearing mother very well as she is the younger version of my mom. However, even my mother has no inkling what it is like to be deaf, even she had raised two deaf oral kids. Telling the truth doesn’t mean we have no respect. Sometimes it is hard for parents to hear the truth because they want the best for their kids. I really hope it will be successful for her kids, truly I do. But that remains to be seen as complete success is achieved only in 1/4 of the cases, according to an audiologist who works with deaf kids wearing C.I.s.
Oral Deaf people know very well what AGB’s policy on ASL is. If you don’t want to hear the answers from the people raised in the AGB system, that is your prerogative, but don’t imply that we are not telling the truth.
August 4th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Mishka Zena,
When the protest was going on at Gallaudet, all we heard from you and your fellow bloggers was that Gallaudet is a place where only ASL should be used. No other method. Well you got that as long as they keep putting in a puppet pres. that’s what you will have at Gallaudet.
I haven’t seen or heard anyone fron AG Bell or anywhere else protesting what you all want at Gallaudet. How someone wants to raise thier kids is thier own choice. Not yours or anyone else.
As for twisting statements I read you loud and clear. When someone makes a good point and they are not deaf you easily dismiss them because “they don’t know what it is like”. You have also made many statements in the past referring to being deaf and being a part of deaf culture. NO TWISTING.
August 4th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
I find it fascinating how people keep categorizing me as a Deaf Culturist and Deaf even though I grew up oral and didn’t learn sign language until I went to college and the fact that I wasn’t even in the Deaf Community for ten years until last year. Apparently the concept of someone very comfortable in the hearing world finding Deaf people respected and valued is alien to people who don’t share the same views toward Deaf people. So they think I must have grown up in the Deaf Community or associate with Deaf people forever. That is the tragedy that people don’t understand nor respect Deaf people as equals. Even to an outsider like me, JKF as an unfit leader is readily obvious. Like a broken record, it is not all about deaf identity politics. Look at Davila who grew up hearing until he lost his hearing and still signs PSE, not ASL. I rest my case.
Maybe it is time for hearing people to start listening to Deaf people’s experiences instead of assuming they know better and dismissing their experiences because they are deaf. What do they know? I will never dismiss the experiences of Native Americans and I certainly will consult them if I am adopting and raising a Native American child. I also will encourage that child to develop a cultural identity with them because he/she is Native American, even though I am not one. But, hey, that is me.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:01 am
You just admitted that you are a deaf culturalist! Which is fine but we don’t need to hear your sob story of how you a poor oral deaf child grew up anymore.
That’s right you can teach your child or one you are responsible for anything you want. That’s your choice. The way that another parent wants thier child to grow is thier choice.
It would be nice to listen to these parents as well. But hey, you are always right what can I say.
August 5th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Amazing. Even though I grew up oral and wasn’t in the Deaf Community for the last eleven years until last year, I must be a Deaf Culturist??? Talk about being delusional. I suggest you look up the definition of Deaf Culture. You also automatically assume that I must have a sob oral story when I haven’t said anything. You are on the offense, assuming you know what I am thinking inside. In other words, I must be the same as others, even though I have not attacked Cochlear Implants nor oralism. I do not appreciate you jumping into conclusions what I think and don’t think. Because you have no clue!
Apparently you find it hard to believe that an oralist who learned sign language later can treat Deaf people with equal respect and dignity, even though the oralist is still successful in the hearing world. How sad is this?!?! By the way, what is wrong with Deaf Culture in the first place?
All I am saying is that the child must have the right to express oneself fully. If the baby isn’t able to verbalize nor hear, then the baby should be able to full access to a language… until he/she masters verbal and aural skills fully. This is just a common human right.. the ability to communicate and have full access to a language, both hearing and deaf babies . I am not even debating on the parents’ choice of communication once the baby is able to use vocal cords to form words and listen, ever. But you and others keep conveniently ignoring that.
I find it very interesting that so far nobody has answered this question.
WHY ARE HEARING BABIES ENCOURAGED TO SIGN WHEN DEAF BABIES ARE DISCOURAGED TO SIGN?
So far the commenters have thrown red herrings. They love to bring along other issues when I don’t care about the other issues… I just want a simple answer to a simple question. How hard can this be?
I will not publish any other comments until someone ANSWERS this simple question.
August 5th, 2007 at 11:30 am
In all honesty, I am unable to answer this simple question. If I answer it, it would be just my opinion against other people’s opinions
/ .
August 5th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I concur with Karen Mayes. All of this debate is all opinion based.
For one I don’t agree with your premise that deaf babies are discouraged to sign. I have plenty of evidence to the contrary.
You are in fact taking away a parents right to choose. Maybe you are against abortion that is a choice of yours. Maybe I am pro choice, that is my perogative. Whatever I say will never change your beliefs, however attacking a mother who seems content with her choices for her children based on beliefs is wrong.
August 5th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Show me where AVT and AGB promote sign language until the deaf babies are able to speak and listen.
Parents have the right to make choices, but no babies should be deprived of communication until they are able to speak and listen. That’s my concern… that deaf babies and toddlers have no ability to communicate until they are able to master speech and auditory skills later At what cost to their mastery of English? At what price to their happiness and psychological welfare? Yet hearing babies are encouraged to sign until they can speak.
If you fail to see the logic of this, then obviously you are in denial that deaf babies do need to communicate just like hearing babies. The last time I hear, deaf babies are humans with needs, too.
I fail to see the dangers of permitting deaf babies to sign so they can communicate.. until they are able to talk and listen successfully. Then they won’t need the sign language. Are the hearing parents afraid if the deaf babies sign, they won’t learn how to speak and hear? If so, that’s incorrect. The child will instinctively speak the mother language if the child is able to. If cochlear implants are so successful as the doctors and audiologists claim, then there is nothing to worry about. Just look at the hearing babies signing and later talking. What is the problem, then?
I am trying to understand this irrational fear against sign language. All I care is the ability of the deaf babies to COMMUNICATE, just like hearing babies.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I don’t believe there is any fear involved here. Just choices and opinions. It’s good to see you are passionate about your beliefs and I also believe teaching sign to babies is the right way to go.
I just cannot choose how another adult is going to raise thier own. That’s it!!
One breath you say it is the parents right to choose and the next thing you say it isn’t.
If you believe it is a deaf childs right/requirement to be taught sign from birth then you should be contacting your congressmen, senators and president and make it an ACT. But don’t sit around bashing people for doing what THEY believe to be the right thing for THIER children. As well as bashing AG Bell who has many, many supporters.
August 5th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
An audiologist supports the concept of deaf babies signing and admits an internal bias against sign language among audiologists. AVT, known to forbid sign language, is also controlled by AGB
http://blog.deafread.com/abcohende/2007/08/05/the-greatest-irony-audiologists-response/
August 7th, 2007 at 7:13 am
To Karen Mayes:
Did I attacked you? NO. If you read my question: i was just asking you why if you are sssssssssssssssoooooooooooooo turn off by bloggers…then why do you even bother? You
siad:
I only said it, just my observation and I did not ask for your judgement. Remember, truth is not black/white… it is more of a gray area.
)
Where did I judge you? Re-read my quesiton. No where is there anything about me judging you. Next time be more careful….And IFY: Truth sometimes is black/white.
The Truth One
August 8th, 2007 at 1:23 am
#80,
You (Garrett) are attempting to blur two different issues together into one.
Here are the two questions:
#1) Should the parents of a deaf baby have the right to choose whether that deaf baby is denied exposure to a signed language?
#2) Should deaf babies be exposed to a natural signed language?
Garrett, please do us a favor and answer question #2 without referring to question #1.
Can you do it??? Well, then do it! What’s the answer?
August 8th, 2007 at 9:19 am
Brian,
Question 2, in general, in my opinion cannot be answered without referring to question one because, it is up to the parents and it is thier choice whether a baby is exposed to signed language.
If you asked me, “if it where MY deaf baby”, that’s a different question. I would expose it to every posssible method known to develop its communcation ability including sign. I can only make the choice for my children not others. What other parents do is none of my business.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Garret,
We do have a moral duty to interfere if we feel the welfare of deaf children are being jeopardized by decisons based on misconceptions and deceptions. Most parents have no clue that the majority of cochlear implantees experience limited speech comprehension and can impede literacy development permanently.
December 5th, 2007 at 5:38 am
Noticed no one took friendly protest at AGB Conference in Texas while ago?
What happened?